Horrible Guests, Terrible Crew

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by exploringmatt

I read the whole thread today, not worth re-reading it so soon again

Not sure why the cost to purchase and maintain is relevant. I'm pretty sure my house was more expensive and maintaining the house and garden is a lot of work and cost. I knew that before I bought it. But I never would expect anybody to share those costs, no matter if I invited them, offered them a stay or hired them to do work for me.



Is this different on a boat? If you own a boat, can you expect everybody who steps on it to pay parts of the purchase and maintenance costs?



I can easily see where the disconnect between you and you guests was:

They thought they were invited guests - you wanted them to behave like you chartered the boat together

They wanted good food and drinks - you wanted cheap food and no drinking

They thought it's a vacation - you wanted them as labor



Nothing wrong with your wants, if you made them clear upfront because that's not what people expect when they are invited.

He didn’t ask them to pay for anything but their own dinner when they ate out at a restaurant and their own booze because, since he’s not a big drinker, he doesn’t keep a wide selection aboard. Where did you get the idea he asked them to help pay to maintain his boat?

Your house analogy isn’t quite appropriate because they were clearly not there purely as boat guests but rather were there to act as crew during the crossing of the Atlantic Ocean. Nobody expects to do that and not pitch in on standing watch and help prepare meals, and other routine tasks that need doing while sailing a cruising sailboat.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by exploringmatt

I read the whole thread today, not worth re-reading it so soon again
Not sure why the cost to purchase and maintain is relevant. I'm pretty sure my house was more expensive and maintaining the house and garden is a lot of work and cost. I knew that before I bought it. But I never would expect anybody to share those costs, no matter if I invited them, offered them a stay or hired them to do work for me.

Is this different on a boat? If you own a boat, can you expect everybody who steps on it to pay parts of the purchase and maintenance costs?

I can easily see where the disconnect between you and you guests was:
They thought they were invited guests - you wanted them to behave like you chartered the boat together
They wanted good food and drinks - you wanted cheap food and no drinking
They thought it's a vacation - you wanted them as labor

Nothing wrong with your wants, if you made them clear upfront because that's not what people expect when they are invited.

Your understanding is completely wrong on all issues. Nowhere in this thread did I write anything like what you seem to have understood, your assumptions are incorrect.

[JPA Cate]

Yes! Mostly, folks are nice! Good on Eugenio!

Ann

[exploringmatt]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Your understanding is completely wrong on all issues. Nowhere in this thread did I write anything like what you seem to have understood, your assumptions are incorrect.

I'm sorry that I understand your post differently than you wanted them to be understood. It's not intentional. I don't know you and it seems that people here who know you better have an easier time to get the meaning you want.
It kind of proofs the point, though, that communication is important and to spell out all expectations upfront, just to be sure everybody has the same understanding.

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

He didn’t ask them to pay for anything but their own dinner when they ate out at a restaurant and their own booze because, since he’s not a big drinker, he doesn’t keep a wide selection aboard. Where did you get the idea he asked them to help pay to maintain his boat? .

That's how I read this section of the first post. He might not have asked directly, but to me this sounds like a clear expectation

Originally Posted by Kenomac

they did nothing else in the way of helping out, keeping watch or paying for fuel and marina fees.

And also

Originally Posted by Kenomac

try to estimate the cost to purchase and maintain an Oyster 62 before speculating.

But I wasn't trying to show that I would be right and Kenomac is wrong, I was just trying to illustrate that there's a difference in understanding and meaning of words and that it's better to discuss even the things that seem to be straightforward and obivously wouldn't need discussion

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Your house analogy isn’t quite appropriate because they were clearly not there purely as boat guests but rather were there to act as crew during the crossing of the Atlantic Ocean. Nobody expects to do that and not pitch in on standing watch and help prepare meals, and other routine tasks that need doing while sailing a cruising sailboat.

I understand that that's what Kenomac intended them to be. From reading how they acted, it doesn't sound to me that the "guests" understood that they were not guests but crew.
That's how it's described:

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The first two guests I’ll discuss, agreed and seemed quite enthusiastic to join us in Nova Scotia for two weeks then take part in an Atlantic crossing over to the Azores, then onto Gibraltar. After we picked them up in Halifax (the port and marina of their choosing), within days it became apparent they were just along for the ride.

I'm sure that Kenomac thought and still thinks that the conditions were clear but it seems obvious that the other couple didn't have the same agreement.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

But yes, sharing costs was brought up prior to them agreeing to come aboard for two weeks and they did contribute towards some of the onboard food, but I didn’t expect them to just hang around and not participate in any activities except to amuse themselves on their own computers. They have a boat of their own and know what needs to be done.

Again, to me that sounds like actually discussed agreements were honored, but they failed to fullfil expectations that were not discussed.

When I read this

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Our guests on the other hand make a point of telling everyone how financially successful they’ve been over the years by owning several companies, one of which now employs 80 people. They are currently retired and own a 55ft boat which is presently for sale at $1 million dollars. They also own more than one home.

and this

Originally Posted by Kenomac

They were also the type who would insist on going out to eat at each stop to a restaurant of their choosing (expensive), order several drinks and appetizers each, an expensive meal along with a bottle of wine, offer a taste of the wine to us (my wife doesn’t drink), then.... always want to split the bill when it came. One time unknown to me they ordered a $200 bottle of wine and pulled this, so my wife ended up paying $80 for a plate of spaghetti.

and this

Originally Posted by Kenomac

We only fell for spitting the bill once, after that evening we only paid for ourselves. But these guests were of that mindset throughtout the two weeks... always putting their interests first and making sure they were the ones coming out ahead financially.

then again, I think there was a big communication issue. Both couples seem to follow a different style of living and while for one couple it was normal to have expensive meals for the other it's not. I don't think the "rich" couple wanted to come out ahead, I think they just thought it normal to order expensive and that the others would also do. While Kenomac thought it normal not not waist so much money.

And just to make sure, I'm not blaming Kenomac for the communication deficit, wrong expectations were clearly on both side. I'm also not trying to say that Kenomac is wrong, but if you look at it from a different perspective, the other couple might not have been totally wrong, either. The frustration was probably on both sides. Of course the credit card bill thing is stupid, to me that looks like payback for what they probably consider a ruined vacation. And that doesn't make them look like nice people. Maybe they are complaining in a different forum about that boat they were invited on and all the things they didn't like...

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by exploringmatt

I'm sorry that I understand your post differently than you wanted them to be understood. It's not intentional. I don't know you and it seems that people here who know you better have an easier time to get the meaning you want.
It kind of proofs the point, though, that communication is important and to spell out all expectations upfront, just to be sure everybody has the same understanding.


That's how I read this section of the first post. He might not have asked directly, but to me this sounds like a clear expectation

And also


But I wasn't trying to show that I would be right and Kenomac is wrong, I was just trying to illustrate that there's a difference in understanding and meaning of words and that it's better to discuss even the things that seem to be straightforward and obivously wouldn't need discussion


I understand that that's what Kenomac intended them to be. From reading how they acted, it doesn't sound to me that the "guests" understood that they were not guests but crew.
That's how it's described:

I'm sure that Kenomac thought and still thinks that the conditions were clear but it seems obvious that the other couple didn't have the same agreement.

Again, to me that sounds like actually discussed agreements were honored, but they failed to fullfil expectations that were not discussed.

When I read this

and this

and this

then again, I think there was a big communication issue. Both couples seem to follow a different style of living and while for one couple it was normal to have expensive meals for the other it's not. I don't think the "rich" couple wanted to come out ahead, I think they just thought it normal to order expensive and that the others would also do. While Kenomac thought it normal not not waist so much money.

And just to make sure, I'm not blaming Kenomac for the communication deficit, wrong expectations were clearly on both side. I'm also not trying to say that Kenomac is wrong, but if you look at it from a different perspective, the other couple might not have been totally wrong, either. The frustration was probably on both sides. Of course the credit card bill thing is stupid, to me that looks like payback for what they probably consider a ruined vacation. And that doesn't make them look like nice people. Maybe they are complaining in a different forum about that boat they were invited on and all the things they didn't like...

Very insightful, I can now agree with you on all these points. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

[Kenomac]

It was much easier getting into Montenegro earlier today without a convicted sex offender onboard. This place is wonderful, 2019 summer cruising is off to a much better start.

[Prairie Chicken]

Which boat?

[Kenomac]

I’m on the 53 with my good friend Tom who joins us for 3-8 weeks each year, Pam will meet me in Dubrovnik in a few days. Eugenio purchased most of the food for the trip down from Italy, then couldn’t make the trip due to business travel... but he did get an opportunity to eat much of it before we left. Eugenio will be joining me on my way down to Greece, then back to Italy in late August.

When do you return to Mallorca?

[Tetepare]

I must have missed this thread until now, and must admit some chuckles.

Kenomac, in hindsight this is funny, right? I mean, you couldn’t fabricate the stories in your first post.

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

It was much easier getting into Montenegro earlier today without a convicted sex offender onboard. This place is wonderful, 2019 summer cruising is off to a much better start.

As a Belgian Yottie commented to us many years ago: Boat-guests are like fish, five days is about the longest that they remain fresh.

When planning our first ocean crossing a few years ago we had quite a number of friends, family, acquaintances and friends-of-friends express an interest in coming along as crew. However, when we actually contemplated and discussed the list, we quickly realised that for a variety of reasons, there was actually only one person on it with whom we'd both feel happy to share a small boat on a big ocean with for 3-4 weeks. He couldn't manage the eventual passage route/schedule, but having made that passage with just the two of us - and the wind vane - I doubt that we'd ever contemplate taking anyone with us on an extended passage nowadays.

[flyingfin]

Moderator: Please put this thread to bed!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I must have missed this thread until now, and must admit some chuckles.

Kenomac, in hindsight this is funny, right? I mean, you couldn’t fabricate the stories in your first post.

At the time, it wasn’t funny, now we get plenty of laughs looking back.

[zeehag]

just found this thread... kenomac, i understand your troubles with these folks, yes all of em. and as we know rsos donot change one iota. they talk change but not act it. i have had (shudder) friends i didnot know were rsos until after they died. oops ok well i didnot date em nor sail with em.... there are many weirdos on water.
my crews from hell taught me a lot also. (another shudder). they are each and all the reason why now i manage to remain in port on anchor 2 weeks or so until i can know the reality of their lies and cover stories. also their sea worthiness and health issues and intent. yes i had one try to sabotage my boat thoroughly--the next boat he was on managed to spontaneously sport a fuel leak explode and burn to water line. i found a fuel leak in my boat after that incident and thanked my guardian angels i didnot take the clown off shore. what a close one. took me a year to fix that which he destroyed and i am still finding lil (and big) signs of trouble not naturally occurring. glad i am refitting now.
i think one issue we as nurses encounter is that we trust too quickly. i have cured that one with that clown saboteur. nope. no mas.
i use locals when i need crew now--they seem more able to handle a boat than those for whom i search. one thing fixed.....
another repair is that i count on very few as friends. my FRIENDS have their own boats and use them constantly. we encounter occasionally for holidays and a quick see you now fix. works well.
glad my boat is essentially too small for comfort of someone else on it. my cat gets upset with strangers sleeping in his home. he is also a great detector of bs and evil. i love that cat.he is a lifesaver.
yes crew and friends are difficult to deal with.
i am glad you were able to survive the events described and successfully continue.

[Zil]

Interesting thread. I will return later to finish the read. My question, if there is a written, emailed, or other agreement, how is it enforced? Walk the plank? If so I want to help.

[Windy Patrick]

I have a friend - Jon L. who was a former military officer. He outlined a thing called "WestPac Rules" they used when in a new station or port-of call when dining out with a group of mates or friends.

WestPac Rules works this way: you KNOW ahead of time that the table cost will be SPLIT EVENLY...no matter what is ordered by anyone. He informed me that this engendered a bounteous table of fine steaks , appropriate drinks and desserts - and a lot of fun with no worries at the end. "Yes, it was very spendy at times." Jon opined.

We have friends we eat out with about twice a month. We don't call it out; but we understand it to be WestPac rules and we are less uptight when they drink (we really don't). We are having what we want. Yes, it is spendy at times.