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Old 27-12-2023, 11:27   #1
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Epoch Made All What We Want



https://youtu.be/GxeVQg-X4Ys?si=chJZKFPvbpzWghbY
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Old 27-12-2023, 12:55   #2
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

Looks nice. Problem with lithium batteries is that there is little need to upgrade them, I bought mine 2 years ago and won't have an excuse to upgrade for at least another 8-10 years. Bummer.
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Old 12-01-2024, 02:12   #3
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

Is anyone here running these Epoch 460Ah batteries yet? We have the full Victron setup and like the idea of the battery banks communicating with the Cerbo GX, plus what appears to be a nice build quality?

Ready to pull the trigger on 4 of these beasts to replace our large, but dying FLA bank. However, would like to hear if anyone is using them yet? Or see any obvious issues?

Talk me out of it. Thanks!
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Old 12-01-2024, 06:01   #4
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

We are testing one with an Arco Zeus voltage regulator. Everything looks good so far.

*Edit* We have just begun testing. I'll post details as we get farther along.
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Old 13-01-2024, 09:04   #5
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

Epoch - Victron hookup video:

https://youtu.be/pIXSKpi-TRo?si=ac6sg_7zUHc8lD1h
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Old 13-01-2024, 10:33   #6
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

Epoch are definitely a good choice of drop in avoiding the surprise box issue of eg LI-time and the way to go for the avaerage customer where the battery is a blackbox delivering power.
Liontronics is also good. Both a premium price point, you get what you pay for.
Do Epoch actually work in master/slave config when your bank consits of multiple batteries?

Just for a price of an Epoch i get double to triple capacity in DIY with master/slave config also communicating to victron.
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Old 24-01-2024, 16:59   #7
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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Originally Posted by MerMike View Post
We are testing one with an Arco Zeus voltage regulator. Everything looks good so far.

*Edit* We have just begun testing. I'll post details as we get farther along.



Are you certain that the Zeus is receiving canbus instructions about LFP condition sent by the BMS, to the CerboGX and then converted to canbus instructions for charging by the Arco Zeus?


What evidence of that do you see in your monsters?
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Old 24-01-2024, 17:04   #8
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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Are you certain that the Zeus is receiving canbus instructions about LFP condition sent by the BMS, to the CerboGX and then converted to canbus instructions for charging by the Arco Zeus?


What evidence of that do you see in your monsters?
At the moment it is not. Further tweaks in software are required, from Victron and perhaps from Arco as well.
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Old 24-01-2024, 17:43   #9
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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At the moment it is not. Further tweaks in software are required, from Victron and perhaps from Arco as well.

Thanks. My eyesight is not so good I guess.
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Old 25-01-2024, 09:00   #10
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

So just to put a sharper point on the question, does the Zeus support DVCC over canbus, and control charging accordingly? I think the answer is No. One might presume that will change over time, but I think the current answer is No.
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Old 25-01-2024, 12:55   #11
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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So just to put a sharper point on the question, does the Zeus support DVCC over canbus, and control charging accordingly? I think the answer is No. One might presume that will change over time, but I think the current answer is No.
Thanks. What is DVCC? over Canbus? What does this really mean?

I am looking for the Epoch to send the proper canbus signals about state of charge, cell state, and any and all advance notices of shutdown for overvoltage, undervoltage, soc, heat, etc. such that the CerboGX understands and transmits these directions for controling charge to the regulator.

I think it would be better if this canbus dialog was handled directly, but that is not likely to happen IMHO.

I don't think either the Zeus or Wakespeed will get the proper signals at this point.

How many LFP/BMS dropin installations with or without canbus, are there out there at this point? Because none of the BMS are controlling the regulator.

As the song goes "I will not give you false hope..." HA HA
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Old 25-01-2024, 13:43   #12
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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Thanks. What is DVCC? over Canbus? What does this really mean?

I am looking for the Epoch to send the proper canbus signals about state of charge, cell state, and any and all advance notices of shutdown for overvoltage, undervoltage, soc, heat, etc. such that the CerboGX understands and transmits these directions for controling charge to the regulator.

I think it would be better if this canbus dialog was handled directly, but that is not likely to happen IMHO.

I don't think either the Zeus or Wakespeed will get the proper signals at this point.

How many LFP/BMS dropin installations with or without canbus, are there out there at this point? Because none of the BMS are controlling the regulator.

As the song goes "I will not give you false hope..." HA HA
DVCC is Distributed Voltage and Current Control. Victron's method of sharing voltage and current information between connected devices.

The Epoch internal BMS sends the information to the Cerbo, via CanBus. The Cerbo then sends charge/discharge signal to the MultiPlus. AFAIK, there is no separate ATC (Allow to Charge) signal available from the battery.

The question I'm investigating is whether the Zeus recoginizes the ATC or any other signal being sent to the Cerbo from the Epoch. The answer so far is no. I can't tell you whether or when that will change.

My observation is that the Zeus uses Canbus to report info to the Cerbo. The charging amps, % field drive, alt temperature and other parameters are reported to the Cerbo and can be tracked in VRM.
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Old 26-01-2024, 08:36   #13
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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Thanks. What is DVCC? over Canbus? What does this really mean?


It's the set of messages that are sent over a canbus that allow a BMS to direct charging devices. The BMS sends a continuous stream of messages expressing it's charging needs, and other devices listening on the canbus adjust their charging output accordingly. DVCC is a Victron protocol. There is another one used in the RV world called RVC, I believe.


For BMS-controlled charging to work, the BMS needs to be sending in some protocol, and the chargers need to be listening for that same protocol. When someone says that something supports "canbus control", or has "Victron integration", you have no idea what that actually means. You need to know which protocols are supported, and ideally whether there has actually been interoperability testing between any products of interest. Also keep in mind that "Victron support" could simply mean that the BMS sends NMEA 2000 battery status messages, and that a connected Victron GX device can interpret and display them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
I am looking for the Epoch to send the proper canbus signals about state of charge, cell state, and any and all advance notices of shutdown for overvoltage, undervoltage, soc, heat, etc. such that the CerboGX understands and transmits these directions for controling charge to the regulator.

That would be DVCC that you are asking for. The GX device then acts as a go-between for other Victron devices that are not directly on the canbus. So teh GX listens to teh DVCC messages, and directs solar chargers over ve.direct, inverters over ve.bus, etc.


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Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
I think it would be better if this canbus dialog was handled directly, but that is not likely to happen IMHO.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you say more?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
I don't think either the Zeus or Wakespeed will get the proper signals at this point.

Wakespeed can listen to and react to DVCC, so that works. I think Wakespeed also supports RVC, but am not certain. It's unclear to me whether the Zeus supports either of these, and is basically what I was asking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
How many LFP/BMS dropin installations with or without canbus, are there out there at this point? Because none of the BMS are controlling the regulator.

As the song goes "I will not give you false hope..." HA HA

I'm not sure about drop-ins. My battery system supports DVCC, and all the charger devices respond to it. It's an MG Energy battery system.
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Old 26-01-2024, 08:46   #14
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

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DVCC is Distributed Voltage and Current Control. Victron's method of sharing voltage and current information between connected devices.

The Epoch internal BMS sends the information to the Cerbo, via CanBus. The Cerbo then sends charge/discharge signal to the MultiPlus. AFAIK, there is no separate ATC (Allow to Charge) signal available from the battery.

The question I'm investigating is whether the Zeus recoginizes the ATC or any other signal being sent to the Cerbo from the Epoch. The answer so far is no. I can't tell you whether or when that will change.

My observation is that the Zeus uses Canbus to report info to the Cerbo. The charging amps, % field drive, alt temperature and other parameters are reported to the Cerbo and can be tracked in VRM.

I should have read you response before replying myself.


ATC is embedded in DVCC, so you get that as part of DVCC. I am not aware of any stand-alone canbus message just for ATC. i think for charger control, the BMS and charger(s) needs to support DVCC, or RVC, or whatever others are out there. Otherwise you can use discrete wired signals where the BMS produces them, and chargers can react to them.


It sounds like Zeus's "Victron Integration" is the simplistic variant that I speculated about. I still have hopes for the Zeus device, but it's not quite ready for prime time yet. But that's OK, you have to start somewhere. It's just frustrating that they don't say clearly what they have and don't have.
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Old 26-01-2024, 08:49   #15
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Re: Epoch Made All What We Want

Quote:
Originally Posted by MerMike View Post
DVCC is Distributed Voltage and Current Control. Victron's method of sharing voltage and current information between connected devices.

The Epoch internal BMS sends the information to the Cerbo, via CanBus. The Cerbo then sends charge/discharge signal to the MultiPlus. AFAIK, there is no separate ATC (Allow to Charge) signal available from the battery.

The question I'm investigating is whether the Zeus recoginizes the ATC or any other signal being sent to the Cerbo from the Epoch. The answer so far is no. I can't tell you whether or when that will change.

My observation is that the Zeus uses Canbus to report info to the Cerbo. The charging amps, % field drive, alt temperature and other parameters are reported to the Cerbo and can be tracked in VRM.

Interesting question. I dont know why the Zues would NOT detect the signals unless there is some shortcoming. I can say that with the Epoch 460 connected to the Cerbo GX when the battery does NOT want a charge a blocking signal is displayed on the CerboGX/touch 50 on the Epoch tab at the bottom where is states
"Number of modules blocking charge/discharge 0/0"

If there is an issue with any Epoch 460ah battery in the string (when daisy chained) it will block the charge from the MultiplusII or other connected device AFAIK. It would seem this info would be available to the Arco Zues.

Unfortunately I do not have an Arco Zues regulator to test and have the older Balmar 618. I will go to the Arco depending on how this shakes out.

You would think the Cerbo GX DVCC info would be available to anything on the network. But I am not sure.

Thing is..would you want the alternator to make use of charge blocking signal? You would not want the alternator to shut off really, unlike the Multipluss batt charger? I am still working this out really so this discussion is great.

Thinking about it I am not sure you want the alternator to shut down or to derate to near 0 from not having an ATC signal from a battery since it is not just a dedicated battery charger like the MultiplusII. Obviously it supplies power to critical ships system while underway. The batt itself will not take a charge in this scenario though, as expected. The batt is still free to output to the systems and/or inverter as needed and the rest of the 12v system and alternator carry on as usual? All bases are covered in that scenario?

* Batt is not taking a charge since its full (or damaged)
* Batt is available to output (as long as its not damaged)
* Alternator outputting sufficient power to run ships systems but throttled to appropriate voltage and current since it will not be charging the Epochs
* MultiplusII or batt charger is not charging since it is not getting the ATC
* MultiplusII able to use battery voltage for 120v

Is there any scenario where the Arco Zues should make use of not having the ATC signal?

Now I wonder if all that changes if you put the Arco Zues in generator mode?


I am just thinking out loud here so if I made any obvious errors in thinking just point them out and we can discuss further.
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