current in Rhine river

[JanDane]

I am planning to sail a 32 ft sailboat with a good engine from Basel to Lubeck via Rhine, Strassbourg to Mosel, back on Rhine and the midland kanal to Lubeck. I am planning departure Basel in late may/beginning of june. I have heard that the Rhine can be very powerfull at this time a year, and being a rookie on rivers (have sailed for 30+year in real water) I am requesting good advice. Both on how thr Rhine is, the canal to Mosel and mosel river it self. The mast will be brought along on the boat or send to Lubeck by lorry

[Zanshin]

I've lived along the Rhein for years and have spent many a day lounging on my balcony watching traffic go up and down the river at the bend in Bingen am Rhein. The commercial traffic is heavy in both directions and takes some getting used to. From your post you will be motoring downstream and the current is quite strong. The beautiful stretch from Bingen to Koblenz with all the castles and the dangerous Lorelei has currents of about 5-6 knots, upriver of Mainz you'll see 3-4 knots. All this depends upon the rains.
What flag does the boat have? Licensing rules on the Rhine, Mosel and Mittellandkanal can be strict and the Germans will enforce them. You will need at least a SRC or equivalent to be allowed to use VHF, and many VHF radios support ATIS (which you might need, depending upon your flag - I'd have to check my old textbooks for that). If your flag country requires a license for inland sailing you'd need that, too.
If you read German I can give you links to the German sites for inland waterway navigation, although the most important and comprehensive site is ELWIS.

[Zanshin]

I should have added that I have sailed at sea for years with some ocean crossings singlehanded; but a couple of years back I took the German inland-sailing course for that license (which is quite different from the German ocean-sailing license, which I also have - which doesn't even let me sail a small dinghy inland!) and found it tough.

It was several days of learning and I found it quite complicated even though I had already done all the radio stuff and didn't have to learn that. I think that undertaking that long trip from Basel to Lübeck is a big undertaking and that sailing the rivers with commercial barge traffic along with ferries is going to be difficult and stressful without prior experience. While most Germans speak English, the VHF river traffic and communication with lock personnel is done in German.

I'm a big proponent of learning by going out and doing things, but the Rhine and Mosel might be too big a chunk to bite off without a bit of experience.

I recently motored from Newport, RI to Annapolis (my mast was missing and I was going to a refit). I was warned about the heavy commercial traffic in the Long Island Sound, around Manhattan and especially the Delaware River and the C&D canals. None of them even comes close to traffic on the Rhine. The C&D canal width approximates the shipping channel in the Rhine but you'd need to add in barges going in both directions around sharp corners with a 5knot current and with pleasure vessels bouncing about and those car ferries going across the river (no bridges along long stretches, so every 5 miles or so there's a ferry zipping across).

[JanDane]

Hi Zanshin.
Thanks a lot for your comments and answers. It was just what I needed - The boat flies Danish flag and it's home port is in Denmark. I am Danish and I have the certificate of ownership, a certificate from our authorities allowing me to fly the Danish flag. Also a certificate of proof, that there has been paid MwSt on the boat and on the same paper, ship's name, and the radio callsign is shown, the MMSI number and also when (1983) and where (factory) the boat was built,(Denmark) including boat's keel number, production number, engine number and HP certificate. I have radio operator's licence plus the Danish "Certificate in proficiency in yachting". The VHF has DSC, MMSI, ATIS and also AIS. During this winter I am attending a CEVNI course which should end up in a certificate allowing me to be skipper on the European rivers and canals. I have all available maps of the rivers/canals inclusive some books and also my Garmin GPSMAP is equipped with map of the rivers and canals.
So far - it looks good. However, my biggest concern is manoeuvring the rivers down stream with the 5 knots current. For me this is wild thing. Even though Danish straits and belts are filled with commercial ships, there is a lot of room on all sides. I guess I have to look for an experienced co-pilot to come along -

[Zanshin]

Hello Jan - your details make the trip sound a lot more feasible; with your CEVNI ticket you will know the correct rules and procedures to follow - something I hesitated to really explain in my first posts because most of the forum members are from the USA and don't understand the complexities of the traffic rules involved; because they don't need them.

The majority of your trip will be in relatively straight stretches where that current current won't affect you too much. But the wonderful curvy stretches, especially between Mainz/Bingen and the "Dreiländereck" in Koblenz where the Mosel meets the Rhein are full of incredible scenery with medieval castles towering over you at almost every bend, are very difficult navigation. The heavily-laden and barely maneuverable cargo barges need most or all of the deep water channel to navigate in and you are going to be the give-way vessel and then that current is going to make things difficult. But with VHF and solid planning it is doable and I dream of doing that trip one day (downstream, not upstream )

There are a lot of smaller marinas between Basel and Luebeck for you to overnight in, and you can make some really good time with 5 knots of boat speed and another 5 knots of current! You will have lots of daylight hours to work with in June with about 16 hours of navigable daylight time to work with. The spring floods that often force the Mosel and Rhein to close for days or weeks will be long past and the drought conditions that sometimes close the rivers to traffic are usually later in the summer.
If you aren't on a fixed schedule I'd plan 3 days for Bingen-Koblenz or Bingen-Duesseldorf. There are some incredible medieval towns (still with Roman city walls and places where Charlemagne stayed) that have what I consider some of the best local wine in the world and great hospitality. I can think of Bingen (about 100 yards from my flat) or Ruedesheim on the other side, then Bacharach, then ... I just realized that I would go on and describe too many places between there and Cologne for you to stay in.

With your CEVNI and experience sailing, the upper stretches should be relatively stress-free and by the time you make it to more trafficked places you will have enough experience. But having someone along who has done it before is not a bad idea.

[JanDane]

Zanshin, again…thanks a lot. I was especially a bit concerned about the part from Basel to Strassbourg. We have thought of following the canal from Strassbourg to Mosel and then follow Mosel to the Rhine. I have read, that the Mosel should be more fantastic than the Rhine. Do you think this is correct or would you recommend to stay on Rhine?.
We have plenty of time so maybe the tour will last 2- 3 month instead of one. We indeed want to be “city-tourists” as well and experience the old, medieval part of Europe.

[Zanshin]

You are asking a person born on the Rhein and who lived on the Rhein which river to choose from?
The Mosel will have less traffic, but that stretch of Rhein in Rheinland-Pfalz is wonderful because of the steep hills and many bends and castles. The Mosel is usually in rolling hills planted with Riesling vines and meanders a bit more. Either way, it will be a trip to remember! And how did a boat that size make it UP the Rhein/Mosel to Basel?

[nepal]

I sailed this summer from Stasbourg to Rotterdam.
If you're not in a hurry and anticipate, there is still plenty of room to stay away from ships and buoys. AlS very useful to see around the corner. Plan where you stay for the night, I'm not sure if all small marinas have transient Bertus.

[JanDane]

Hi again Zanshin-
Sorry - das war eine blöde Frage.
The boat was originally produced in Denmark in 1983- A Danish motorsailer called LM32 and after some 20 years in denmark, it was bought by a Swiss and transported by road to a remote lake in Schweiz, where it has been for some years. The owner has put in on sale and I think it is appropriate it returns to Denmark now. This combined with the opportunity to sail downstream the Rhine and a fair price makes it all very attractive

[JanDane]

Nepal:
Thanks a lot. As long as we keep a humble attitude and stay away from everything bigger than us self, I guess it can be done

[Zanshin]

Are you sure that the VAT paid status of the boat is still valid? As Switzerland isn't part of the EU that means, for tax purposes, that the boat has been "exported" and if outside of the EU VAT zone for more than 5 years the VAT paid status is cancelled. I know that this would happen for a German boat but perhaps the Danish tax laws are different - but it would be worth checking! I worked in Copenhagen for a long time and know how much the authorities like collecting taxes on things... like cars... and that might also apply to boats.
Actually, the VAT payment is due when an untaxed object first arrives in the EU, so that would be the Germans in your case and they'd take 19% of the estimated boat value (they might dispute a low bill-of-sale price) payable immediately upon entry.

So it would be worth your while to check that out before starting your journey.

Leider ist es mit den Behoerden niemals einfach, oder schnell, oder billig...

[JanDane]

Zanshin -
It really is a cirkus.....
The danish tax laws stated, that if the boat is built before 1985, it is free from VAT when being imported to Denmark. That means, when I get the contract I can send it to the Danish tax dept. and then they will issue me a certificate stating, that EU VAT has been paid. It would be much more easy, if I did buy it from a german, I know.

[Zanshin]

JanDane - I had forgotten about older boats - you are correct (and I'm glad for you) regarding the VAT status paid! It really can become complicated. German cruisers returning to Germany after 5+ years of circumnavigation paid the VAT price upon their return and were, as you can imagine, less than happy about paying twice!

[JanDane]

Zanshin
State sponsored robbery. I know it is the same for Danish boats returning after a long period. However, when leaving Denmark, all boat owners can get a certificate stating, that VAT has been paid and if they have this, they should be sure when returning or entering EU waters

[micheledas]

Dear all, I was looking for information online and found this old discussion, hope I can get some information from your wisdom.
I am planning some similar trip, but with a completely different vessel: my goal is to navigate some rivers with my little 470 dinghy, which I am partially adapting for the purpose of fun and exploration ( it is too old for regattas anyway). I live on a city on the Rhine in the Netherlands, but my boat is down in Italy. Obviously, my first thought was to investigate if it is possible for a dinghy to sail down the Rhine, so I can bring my boat here with a beautiful adventure. My experience with dinghy sailing is enough, but I do not have experience with rivers, nor with larger boats. I have questions like:
- Do I need licensing of any sort for a dinghy in a river?
- is the traffic too dangerous to handle? I will have onboard a small engine, and a small portable cart to carry the boat on land for short distances.
- What are your thoughts on the idea as a whole?

Thank you very much for your inputs!