Albin Ballad 30 for bluewater cruising

[barnakiel]

Ballads are fine boats. They sail well. They are comfortable. They are well priced.


Simple boats and nothing to not like.



barnakiel

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Ballads are fine boats. They sail well. They are comfortable. They are well priced.


Simple boats and nothing to not like.



barnakiel

So I hope. Yet a sandwich deck and rusted mast keel step may be a serious boat integrity problem.
That's why I am also thinking about Rival 32 ...

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "What about doing this in a blow? Can you safely coil anchor rod and chain on foredeck in big waves and no anchor box when you are alone on the boat?"

Why would you try to do it that way anyway?

There are some preliminary considerations. In Scowegian waters, which was the Albin 30's cruising ground, the fetches are very short and wave height therefore always little or moderate. Sailing in "The Skerries" (east coast of Sweden) there is always a lump of rock that you can use as a breakwater and you can always find a lee somewhere to shelter behind. However, just like here in the Salish Sea, you can be 50 feet from shore and in 200 feet of water. The distances between harbours are very short so anchoring is never much of a problem since it's something you do only if you are hell-bent on isolating yourself. "Emergency anchoring" is, if ever, rarely called for.

...

Dok, I you want to know what I do in TrentePieds, just ask :-)
TP

Ok, so what you do in TrentePieds? :-)
I hope to sail someday Scowegian waters, yet first other waters including high seas where anchoring may be in conditions similar to these ones:

How to anchor for heavy weather – Skip Novak's Storm Sailing

[TrentePieds]

One thing at a time :-)

The Rival 32 is a five-tonner as opposed to the Ballad's 3 1/2 ton displacement. You will find that that makes a tremendous difference to the amount of clobber you can carry, and, in consequence, to how "livable" and comfortable the boat is. Unless my math has forsaken me, that means that the Rival's displacement is 40 per cent greater than the Ballads!

Take time to study the arrangement plans side by side and remember that in cabin lay-out every single inch counts!

The basic numbers (S/D and D/LWL) appear to favour the Ballad over the Rival, but when the wind comes up, those numbers no longer mean much. "Real" S/D depends on how much canvas you are actually carrying at a given time, and a higher D/LWL can be an advantage when the seas become unruly. What you want, especially if you are hoping to "do a Skip Novak", is a boat that's habitable in the particular waters where you propose to take her.

For what it's worth, TP has almost identical numbers to the Rival. MyBeloved absolutely loves her because TP is a "pilot house cruiser" with lots of light below and protection from the elements. That's why we bought her. MyBeloved who had never set foot in a boat until she was of retirement age and fell into by orbit will never make a good sailor, but that is not the object of OUR game. TP is not MY kinda boat, but that's immaterial as long as MyBeloved is happy :-)

The PO, from whom we bought her for a pittance, had ODed on glossy mags and thot he was gonna go "blue water" in his dotage. In consequence he injured a fundamentally sound boat, though one with low S/D and high D/LWL, by razing her original rig and installing roller furling not only on the fore, but also on the main with every damn string of spaghetti led back to the cockpit, where the house top really isn't wide enuff to accommodate it all, and the falls obstruct the best place to sit in the cockpit. The man had obviously never heard of Occam's Razor. We bought her for far less than the man had spent on the new rig :-)

As I said: One thing at a time. Later in the day I'll get to my description of anchoring procedure :-)

Cheers

TP

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by johnn33

try Home - Triola - Albin Ballad #50

Originally Posted by johnn33

also The Ballad Exchange - Index page

John, many thanks for your links! (just came across your post).
For some reason The Ballad Exchange - Index page doesn't open in my browser. Anyway, good info from Triola!

[boatman61]

Given the choice between a Ballard and a Rival 32 I would go for the Rival every time..
She may be a bit slower in light winds but the benefits of greater stowage and tankage, deck equipment (anchoring) and comfort it's a sacrifice well worth taking.. also no foam sandwich.. I believe it's a GRP deck.
Archive details - Rival 32 - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

One thing at a time :-)

The Rival 32 is a five-tonner as opposed to the Ballad's 3 1/2 ton displacement. You will find that that makes a tremendous difference to the amount of clobber you can carry, and, in consequence, to how "livable" and comfortable the boat is. Unless my math has forsaken me, that means that the Rival's displacement is 40 per cent greater than the Ballads!

Take time to study the arrangement plans side by side and remember that in cabin lay-out every single inch counts!

The basic numbers (S/D and D/LWL) appear to favour the Ballad over the Rival, but when the wind comes up, those numbers no longer mean much. "Real" S/D depends on how much canvas you are actually carrying at a given time, and a higher D/LWL can be an advantage when the seas become unruly. What you want, especially if you are hoping to "do a Skip Novak", is a boat that's habitable in the particular waters where you propose to take her.

For what it's worth, TP has almost identical numbers to the Rival. MyBeloved absolutely loves her because TP is a "pilot house cruiser" with lots of light below and protection from the elements. That's why we bought her. MyBeloved who had never set foot in a boat until she was of retirement age and fell into by orbit will never make a good sailor, but that is not the object of OUR game. TP is not MY kinda boat, but that's immaterial as long as MyBeloved is happy :-)

The PO, from whom we bought her for a pittance, had ODed on glossy mags and thot he was gonna go "blue water" in his dotage. In consequence he injured a fundamentally sound boat, though one with low S/D and high D/LWL, by razing her original rig and installing roller furling not only on the fore, but also on the main with every damn string of spaghetti led back to the cockpit, where the house top really isn't wide enuff to accommodate it all, and the falls obstruct the best place to sit in the cockpit. The man had obviously never heard of Occam's Razor. We bought her for far less than the man had spent on the new rig :-)

As I said: One thing at a time. Later in the day I'll get to my description of anchoring procedure :-)

Cheers

TP

TrentePieds,
Could you please share some info about your boat? With photos and specs, if possible.



I did some research on Rival 32 too, couldn't find a lot, unfortunately, and for for heavy-weather sailing I would go for Rival 32 and not for Ballad. Yet, speed is also important, as well as total investments in the boat. Compare:

Rival 32
Comfort Ratio: 32.83
Capsize Screening Formula:1.71

Ballad
Comfort Ratio: 22.09
Capsize Screening Formula: 2.00

From web:

The capsize screening value for any boat is found by dividing the cube root of the boat's displacement volume into its maximum beam (Bmax). The higher the resulting number is than a value of 2.0, the greater the chance that the boat will be unduly prone to capsize; if it is below 2.0, it should be safe offshore.
http://www.oceannavigator.com/assessing-stablity

You can use the following guidelines to interpret comfort ratio results: numbers below 20 indicate a lightweight racing boat; 20 to 30 indicates a coastal cruiser; 30 to 40 indicates a moderate bluewater cruising boat; 50 to 60 indicates a heavy bluewater boat; and over 60 indicates an extremely heavy bluewater boat.
https://wavetrain.net/2011/10/15/cru...comfort-ratio/

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Given the choice between a Ballard and a Rival 32 I would go for the Rival every time..
She may be a bit slower in light winds but the benefits of greater stowage and tankage, deck equipment (anchoring) and comfort it's a sacrifice well worth taking.. also no foam sandwich.. I believe it's a GRP deck.
Archive details - Rival 32 - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Yes, I agree and like Rival 32. Hard to find though. Also has some potential problems:

- Deck stepped mast - foredeck may be compressed under the step and require repairs.
- Anchor chain in a tube gets stuck because of small anchor box. Hard to fix this, because when it happens you can not access chain from the deck, as I understand, only from below.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by dokondr

Yes, I agree and like Rival 32. Hard to find though. Also has some potential problems:

- Deck stepped mast - foredeck may be compressed under the step and require repairs.
- Anchor chain in a tube gets stuck because of small anchor box. Hard to fix this, because when it happens you can not access chain from the deck, as I understand, only from below.

That's what forehatches are for... and the chain flaking technique..
As for the deck stepped mast, a survey should show that up and if your still concerned it's an easy fix to rig a brace with plates and threaded scaffold pole though I am pretty sure that timber brace should have prevented this.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by boatman61

That's what forehatches are for... and the chain flaking technique..

When you are alone on the boat deploying the anchor with chain stuck in the tube, forehatch does not relieve you very much when you keep going down below to fix the problem and back up on deck. Especially when it blows hard :-)

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by dokondr

When you are alone on the boat deploying the anchor with chain stuck in the tube, forehatch does not relieve you very much when you keep going down below to fix the problem and back up on deck. Especially when it blows hard :-)

Been there, done that many times that's why I mentioned flaking your anchor chain out beforehand.. and if it's to rough to do that in the Anchorage you've made a bad choice.
15metres flaked on deck is no biggie and enough to get you started in 5metres depth.
As far as I am aware the chain locker is not much different to those in Westerlies at the foot of the foreberth and its not a long pipe, and one can always shorten it.. very rare I've had this happen, mind I do flatten the pile when I get clear of obstacles rather than leave it to its own devices to get gnarled up.. a couple of minutes at most.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Could you please share some info about your boat?"

Yes I will. Later. I just finished writing a screed to someone asking about anchoring in a much bigger boat, a ketch, 3 times the displacement of the Albin, and therefore requiring a different technique. Have a go at this link.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-243988-4.html

If it doesn't work, I'll cut'n'paste the treatise for you.

And while we are talking about treatises: There are two books I would recommend that you read if you haven't already. Read them, internalize them and understand them in this order: 1) Francis Kinney, Skene's Elements of Yacht Design and C.A.Marchaj, Aero-Hydrodynamics of Yachts

Skeene's is straight forward and was for many years the introductory text at the Westlawn School of Yacht Design. If you have a private pilot's licence or, in this context better still, a sailplane pilot's licence, Marchaj will be familiar stuff. If you have no practical aerodynamics behind you, Marchaj can be heavy going, but his stuff is fundamental to an understanding of what all the high-falutin' talk is about :-)

À la prochaine

TP

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by dokondr

So I hope. Yet a sandwich deck and rusted mast keel step may be a serious boat integrity problem.
That's why I am also thinking about Rival 32 ...

A sandwich deck and rusted mast keel step are not boat type related but age related.


If the sandwich deck is delaminated, stay off. Our boat has sandwich deck, no problem whatsoever - boat from 1980.



I am surprised the mast step is rusted as the mast is alloy and so should be the step.


Rival 32 is a completely different boat. It has all the British properties while the Albin is a Swedish style boat. These are vastly different.


My friend here has a Rival 32. I like his boat despite being pretty spartan inside.



Albin sails better, Rival may have stronger hull overall.


Rivals 32 and 34 are known for chainplate problems. Some builds (I believe the late ones maybe) have no chainplates to speak of.



They also have vastly different cockpits vs. Albins.


I personally prefer Albin cockpit and interior, but I would like Rival's hull layup and underbody (shape,ballast layout, etc,).



etc.



If there are only one sample of each in your area, you may also decide by how well they are kept. Both are old boats and plenty will depend on how much care they have received thru the years.



b.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

A sandwich deck and rusted mast keel step are not boat type related but age related.
...

My friend here has a Rival 32. I like his boat despite being pretty spartan inside.
...

b.

Thanks, can't find info on how Rival 32 keel is attached to the hull. Hope it is integral, no bolts?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by dokondr

Thanks, can't find info on how Rival 32 keel is attached to the hull. Hope it is integral, no bolts?

Ask at:
https://www.rivalowners.org.uk/


Why would bolts bother you?


Many boats have bolts.


I have not yet heard of any Rival boat dropping her keel.



b.