A new adventure begins.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by richr

It's a great shame. Of course I am glad you are OK, but you did something irresponsible and silly in setting off; you have reaped the consequences and you have also inflicted consequences upon the environment.

The "just go crowd", and the general preference many of us share for boating being a lightly-regulated activity, are both predicated on mature people acting responsibly. That means doing things like research, reading, asking advice, and getting weather forecasts.

I also don't like the bit where you ditched the boat. Somebody commented that it's OK because you thought about clearing it up then found you couldn't afford it. Sorry but no. I might have an accident like this one day, but if I do so I will have the benefit of 30k plus miles on boats of all shapes and sizes. That experience will tell me to have a weather forecast, a radio, to know how my boat handles in a blow (not just a Saturday sail in the Chesapeake); the ability to navigate and the rest. An accident might happen but at least I have taken significant steps to make it improbable.

You, sir, had less sailing and, as important, seamanship ability than a 9 year old with a dinghy level 1. And the nine-year old would likely have been taught "if in doubt, don't go to sea" and, more importantly, to have doubts. You should have doubts; you should overcome your doubts with acquired reason and skill, leading you to knowledge and judgment. You have shown none of the above. And you have escaped with your life; frankly some contrition wouldn't go amiss.

You've been an ass. Please don't be in too much of a hurry to come sailing again.

I think maybe he kinda realizes he screwed up already. No need to rub it in.

[richr]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

I think maybe he kinda realizes he screwed up already. No need to rub it in.

Sorry, I appreciate you're being kind, but I don't get the sense he does realise he screwed up.

I don't get a hint of "I'm so sorry for the cost I'm imposing on the environment / the taxpayer". I definitely hear he's saving up to pursue sailing, but not that he wants to rectify the damage he's caused. Nor do I hear that having doubts and taking advice is strong on the agenda before he goes sailing again. The lack of a radio, the lack of weather forecast, the lack of knowledge are just described as things that happened to him.

If he'd made it by good fortune, my guess is he'd be out and about telling people sailing is easy. Not what the sailing community needs.

Like I said, don't be in a hurry to come sailing. Do so AFTER you have learned some self-doubt and learned to seek advice.

[Clamdigger]

Op came across in intial postings as a typical 'instant gratification ' type of millenial. That he was 'in the Navy' doesnt mean he actually spent any time learning 'seamanship',lots of shoreside duty. That his father tagged along and condoned his son s actions is even more telling. Not a great role model that guy!

He had comms issues from the getgo, and had been 'in the Navy',yet elected to just wing it and see what happens? He did not even do basic reading on the Eastern Seaboard prior to buying the boat. If he had the major glaring 400lb gorilla in the room is the Cape and graveyard of the Atlantic, known by school children for hundreds of miles North and South of it!

To claim poverty as an excuse for walking away from his responsibilities of his created shipwreck, that s typical millenial attitude....did nt work out moving on to the next thing! Glad he s not still in the Navy!!

His actions could go against current and future boaters, with regards to legislation and laws passed that financially further incumber others. Now imagine if he was in the AICW and had an engine failure and took out a bridge. There would have been a pirate attack by other pissed off transient boaters and local businesses!

Bet someone in the area can find the NPS file # on this and follow it.....

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by SuttonCS

...Before making the decision to leave the area I probably talked to 25 people about various ways to remove the boat. The quote for "tens of thousands of dollars" was for the preferred method with cranes and trucks and trailers and various permits requiring weeks to organize and was completely outside my ability to pursue.

Every year -- and this is just my guess -- at least a dozen sailboats and power boats get beached up and down the California coast. If there is fuel or other hazardous material on board, the Coast Guard will attempt to remove at whatever expense and seek reimbursement from the owner. This is likely more an issue with larger fishing vessels that carry a lot of fuel. Some of these boats are able to be refloated and towed to safe harbor. The sooner this is done the better because in a matter of days, the conditions here will break apart these boats in tiny bits and scatter styrofoam and fiberglass for miles. One of these groundings happened in a state park near where I lived along a sensitive rocky reef coast. The owner had paid $5000 for his 28-footer and sailed off back toward LA that night. He got about 20 miles south and ran into rough weather. He didn't have charts on board and thought that the flashing light he saw nearby was our local harbor. He made his way toward the light, directly over the reef and onto the beach. When it was obvious that state and federal agencies would be unable to do anything quickly before the boat was a complete wreck and debris was strewn all over, my friends pitched in to break up the boat with chain saws and schlepped it all to a dumpster down this long beach and up some stairs along a steep cliff. It took a village, but they got it done. They were never compensated either. The owner had been taken in by neighbors, given warm clothes and food, and never showed up to lend a hand. To my knowledge, he's never been given a bill because these good Samaritans took care of his mess.

A while ago after I had been dinghy sailing, I asked a question on the forum about who gives way to whom inside our harbor where there are many small commercial vessels and recreational sail and paddle boaters. I had recently bought my 38-foot boat, had worked on it for 6 months, and then sailed it up from San Diego with two extremely experienced friends. I was still tentative about taking it out and yet when I asked a question, I was excoriated for "not knowing the rules and owning such a large boat." That was 6 years ago and probably 10,000 miles of safe sailing. I mention this because some learn as they go with big doses of information gleaned through direct experience. Others learn by spending 3 hours on the bay and think planning is for wimps. To each his own, really; I don't care, but if you fawk up, then you should pay up or clean up your mess. He should have stayed on site in a tent and gotten everything off that boat in any way that was possible. The comments below were from Sutton right before he left on his grand adventure. I'm all for newbs figuring it out as they go along, but Sutton was clearly not ready. He should pay the park bill before he even thinks about buying another sailboat.

"Hopefully I will learn ground tackle and reefing as I go."

"I dont know what through hulls are (you mean holes?) and I don't know what a seacock is."

"I was surprised how easy it was to learn to sail we figured it out in 3 or 4 hours."

"I would very much like a depth sounder.... ours says "19e" we think there might be a barnacle or something on the sensor."

"The point is we aren't crossing oceans and if you plan its not an adventure its an itinerary."

[captmikem]

This note is to SuttonCS.
I was one of the folks who encouraged you to leave soon, I still stand by that, but I would have waited and gotten the dingy. I said you could drive down the ditch, which is well marked, protected, plenty of places to stop, and people all around you anytime you needed them. I would not have advised you to head out and round Hatteras.
I would appreciate it if you would read this as I am taking the time to write it. It is information for you and a small bit of advice.

First off, It is not the confluence of currents, (gulf stream and Cumberland), sustained 20mph wind from the south, storm surge or tide, (Tide? If you are near enough to shore when off shore to worry about the tide you are TOO CLOSE to shore) that caused you to lose your boat. These are common everyday conditions off Hatteras.
Nor was it your lack off internet.

Have you been to the beach? Think of it, standing there looking out to the ocean. Sea is calm but right close to you is the surf line, inside that the sea is breaking on the shore, rollers and surf. Basically, you were sailing inside that surf line.

Three things caused you to drive your boat ashore.

1. Lack of knowledge. Ignorance. (now ignorance has negative connotations, right now, you and anyone reading this are ignorant to what is in my pocket. This does not mean you are stupid, you just do not know what is in my pocket. If I tell you I have a knife and two quarters, with this knowledge you are no longer ignorant of what is in my pocket. Ignorance is lack of knowedge).
2. The illusion of the shore as safety.
3. Discomfort and fear.

Now I would imagine you took off down the coast, in calm weather thinking how nice this is, but staying close to shore in case ‘something happens’ . your ignorance that being close to shore is a dangerous thing keeps you in shallow, confined, and rougher water, and in your ignorance, you intentionally drove your boat up on the beach instead of into safe water.

The wind is out of the south at what you say is “sustained 20 mph”. the photo of your boat does not show 18kts, even so sailors especially novice ones always over estimate the wind speed and sea heights.

You say you had the sails up and the motor going. If the wind is out of the south, you are motoring, main is probably just flogging and the boom is swinging side to side. Which gets worse as you get into the shoals off Hatteras, adding to your fear and discomfort. Had you laid off to a reach, you would not have needed the engine, (you said you went off shore to save fuel), You would not be in the surf so to speak, and you would have been safely offshore. But you did not have this knowledge, the only knowledge you had was the shore was near and you could drive you boat onto it and get off anytime you wanted.

And 20’ rollers? I know, you were frightened, the boat was rolling like crazy because you were motoring parallel to them so I am sure they seemed like 20 foot. Look at the photo of your boat on the beach, See any 20 foot rollers coming ashore?

And you ‘did not take the internet into the Atlantic’ , well the internet is not going to do a thing for you, if you wanted weather information you could have simply dialed up the weather on your VHF and gotten it continually.

You lost your boat because you were too close to shore, uncomfortable, and frightened. So you drove her ashore so you could step off onto the “safety” of land. You are very lucky it was relatively calm that day as Hatteras is known for its storms and had you encountered one you would most likely have been driven ashore, rolling your boat and like others in such storms, perished.

My suggestion to you is that you accept that It is totally your fault, not the sea. That you accept the fact that through your ignorance came fear and you gave up your boat to quickly gain the security of your feet on solid ground. THEN gain the knowledge to be able to do this correctly. Simply buying Chapmans and reading it will give you exponentially more knowledge than you have right now. It is a book you can buy anywhere, on amazon, or go borrow it from the library. Do yourself a favor and get the real book, not the e-book version. It is called ‘Chapmans Piloting, Seamanship and small boat handling. And it is the best investment you can make with your money right now.

Then, get another boat and try this again. And next time, get a depth sounder that works, you will find it invaluable.

Good luck with your future adventures and fair winds. (and stay away from the shore!)

M

[JPA Cate]

Nice, one, mikem.

It is that people don't know what they don't know, and it's a bad mix with sailing.

I hope Sutton CS reads your post, too. Good j0b.

Ann

[redhead]

Mike M.: I was thinking "What would I tell this guy?"

and then you wrote it - thanks.

[ocnsky]

Originally Posted by captmikem

This note is to SuttonCS.
I was one of the folks who encouraged you to leave soon, I still stand by that, but I would have waited and gotten the dingy. I said you could drive down the ditch, which is well marked, protected, plenty of places to stop, and people all around you anytime you needed them. I would not have advised you to head out and round Hatteras.
I would appreciate it if you would read this as I am taking the time to write it. It is information for you and a small bit of advice.

First off, It is not the confluence of currents, (gulf stream and Cumberland), sustained 20mph wind from the south, storm surge or tide, (Tide? If you are near enough to shore when off shore to worry about the tide you are TOO CLOSE to shore) that caused you to lose your boat. These are common everyday conditions off Hatteras.
Nor was it your lack off internet.

Have you been to the beach? Think of it, standing there looking out to the ocean. Sea is calm but right close to you is the surf line, inside that the sea is breaking on the shore, rollers and surf. Basically, you were sailing inside that surf line.

Three things caused you to drive your boat ashore.

1. Lack of knowledge. Ignorance. (now ignorance has negative connotations, right now, you and anyone reading this are ignorant to what is in my pocket. This does not mean you are stupid, you just do not know what is in my pocket. If I tell you I have a knife and two quarters, with this knowledge you are no longer ignorant of what is in my pocket. Ignorance is lack of knowedge).
2. The illusion of the shore as safety.
3. Discomfort and fear.

Now I would imagine you took off down the coast, in calm weather thinking how nice this is, but staying close to shore in case ‘something happens’ . your ignorance that being close to shore is a dangerous thing keeps you in shallow, confined, and rougher water, and in your ignorance, you intentionally drove your boat up on the beach instead of into safe water.

The wind is out of the south at what you say is “sustained 20 mph”. the photo of your boat does not show 18kts, even so sailors especially novice ones always over estimate the wind speed and sea heights.

You say you had the sails up and the motor going. If the wind is out of the south, you are motoring, main is probably just flogging and the boom is swinging side to side. Which gets worse as you get into the shoals off Hatteras, adding to your fear and discomfort. Had you laid off to a reach, you would not have needed the engine, (you said you went off shore to save fuel), You would not be in the surf so to speak, and you would have been safely offshore. But you did not have this knowledge, the only knowledge you had was the shore was near and you could drive you boat onto it and get off anytime you wanted.

And 20’ rollers? I know, you were frightened, the boat was rolling like crazy because you were motoring parallel to them so I am sure they seemed like 20 foot. Look at the photo of your boat on the beach, See any 20 foot rollers coming ashore?

And you ‘did not take the internet into the Atlantic’ , well the internet is not going to do a thing for you, if you wanted weather information you could have simply dialed up the weather on your VHF and gotten it continually.

You lost your boat because you were too close to shore, uncomfortable, and frightened. So you drove her ashore so you could step off onto the “safety” of land. You are very lucky it was relatively calm that day as Hatteras is known for its storms and had you encountered one you would most likely have been driven ashore, rolling your boat and like others in such storms, perished.

My suggestion to you is that you accept that It is totally your fault, not the sea. That you accept the fact that through your ignorance came fear and you gave up your boat to quickly gain the security of your feet on solid ground. THEN gain the knowledge to be able to do this correctly. Simply buying Chapmans and reading it will give you exponentially more knowledge than you have right now. It is a book you can buy anywhere, on amazon, or go borrow it from the library. Do yourself a favor and get the real book, not the e-book version. It is called ‘Chapmans Piloting, Seamanship and small boat handling. And it is the best investment you can make with your money right now.

Then, get another boat and try this again. And next time, get a depth sounder that works, you will find it invaluable.

Good luck with your future adventures and fair winds. (and stay away from the shore!)

M

You guys realize there is no "Cumberland Current" The Gulf stream meets Labrador.



None of this has anything to do with trying to take an unprepared vessel with a green capt and crew around Cape Point 20 feet from shore in hard SW winds in the summer. Not one captain in a shallow draft power boat would of attempted this insane stab in the dark. I live and sail in the sounds here , know the ranger that helped this guy and is dealing with your neglect.



here's another beauty quote,


" don't stress just go. We don't have a schedule so as far as spare partsgoes you could throw the motor overboard and eventually we would have a wind to get to land. I would very much like a dinghy there seems to be fewer docks sea side and I want a way to get to those beautiful beaches we pass or more specifically to the beautiful women on those beaches. I also would like to know my radio transmits.... and I would very much like a depth sounder.... ours says "19e" we think there might be a barnacle or something on the sensor... hopefully will get a snorkel soon so I can look. The point is we aren't crossing oceans and if you plan its not an adventure its an itinerary "


Really? A few docks sea side...

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by richr

You've been an ass. Please don't be in too much of a hurry to come sailing again.

Jeez! Talk about being an ass! That is the rudest comment I've ever read on this forum. Don't be in too much of a hurry to post again

[SuttonCS]

A bit of clarification the sails and motor were at different times. Also these are common conditions at cape hatteras but the storm surge was real not imagined, I was one of 4 boats lost that day in the area.

[SuttonCS]

So I have been gone a while waiting on the final verdict as it were. For those interested I went to federal court to face charges for losing my boat Feb 4. The end result was a judgement for 8k$ (the cost of moving the boat) and a 150$ fine. Turns out I was one of 4 lost within a 30 hour window though I was the only one to make landfall as many of you have pointed out more experienced captians would not have done.

[SuttonCS]

Originally Posted by captmikem

This note is to SuttonCS.
I was one of the folks who encouraged you to leave soon, I still stand by that, but I would have waited and gotten the dingy. I said you could drive down the ditch, which is well marked, protected, plenty of places to stop, and people all around you anytime you needed them. I would not have advised you to head out and round Hatteras.
I would appreciate it if you would read this as I am taking the time to write it. It is information for you and a small bit of advice.

First off, It is not the confluence of currents, (gulf stream and Cumberland), sustained 20mph wind from the south, storm surge or tide, (Tide? If you are near enough to shore when off shore to worry about the tide you are TOO CLOSE to shore) that caused you to lose your boat. These are common everyday conditions off Hatteras.
Nor was it your lack off internet.

Have you been to the beach? Think of it, standing there looking out to the ocean. Sea is calm but right close to you is the surf line, inside that the sea is breaking on the shore, rollers and surf. Basically, you were sailing inside that surf line.

Three things caused you to drive your boat ashore.

1. Lack of knowledge. Ignorance. (now ignorance has negative connotations, right now, you and anyone reading this are ignorant to what is in my pocket. This does not mean you are stupid, you just do not know what is in my pocket. If I tell you I have a knife and two quarters, with this knowledge you are no longer ignorant of what is in my pocket. Ignorance is lack of knowedge).
2. The illusion of the shore as safety.
3. Discomfort and fear.

Now I would imagine you took off down the coast, in calm weather thinking how nice this is, but staying close to shore in case ‘something happens’ . your ignorance that being close to shore is a dangerous thing keeps you in shallow, confined, and rougher water, and in your ignorance, you intentionally drove your boat up on the beach instead of into safe water.

The wind is out of the south at what you say is “sustained 20 mph”. the photo of your boat does not show 18kts, even so sailors especially novice ones always over estimate the wind speed and sea heights.

You say you had the sails up and the motor going. If the wind is out of the south, you are motoring, main is probably just flogging and the boom is swinging side to side. Which gets worse as you get into the shoals off Hatteras, adding to your fear and discomfort. Had you laid off to a reach, you would not have needed the engine, (you said you went off shore to save fuel), You would not be in the surf so to speak, and you would have been safely offshore. But you did not have this knowledge, the only knowledge you had was the shore was near and you could drive you boat onto it and get off anytime you wanted.

And 20’ rollers? I know, you were frightened, the boat was rolling like crazy because you were motoring parallel to them so I am sure they seemed like 20 foot. Look at the photo of your boat on the beach, See any 20 foot rollers coming ashore?

And you ‘did not take the internet into the Atlantic’ , well the internet is not going to do a thing for you, if you wanted weather information you could have simply dialed up the weather on your VHF and gotten it continually.

You lost your boat because you were too close to shore, uncomfortable, and frightened. So you drove her ashore so you could step off onto the “safety” of land. You are very lucky it was relatively calm that day as Hatteras is known for its storms and had you encountered one you would most likely have been driven ashore, rolling your boat and like others in such storms, perished.

My suggestion to you is that you accept that It is totally your fault, not the sea. That you accept the fact that through your ignorance came fear and you gave up your boat to quickly gain the security of your feet on solid ground. THEN gain the knowledge to be able to do this correctly. Simply buying Chapmans and reading it will give you exponentially more knowledge than you have right now. It is a book you can buy anywhere, on amazon, or go borrow it from the library. Do yourself a favor and get the real book, not the e-book version. It is called ‘Chapmans Piloting, Seamanship and small boat handling. And it is the best investment you can make with your money right now.

Then, get another boat and try this again. And next time, get a depth sounder that works, you will find it invaluable.

Good luck with your future adventures and fair winds. (and stay away from the shore!)

M

Thank you for the good luck wishes and I will try again when the clean up is paid off and I have the funds to do so. I agree with most everything you said and have regretted letting fear make that decision since it happened. Although, I spent over 6 months thinking I'd be ok if I just went further out to sea it was in someway comforting to find out a 28 footer that made that decision capsized not far from where I was.

[belizesailor]

Would be a good idea to learn a bit about marine weather & navigation before you try this adventure again. Maybe do some sailing with others first.

You probably set a record for shortest time between boat acquisition and loss. I wonder if there is a Guiness category for that? But at least you did not become a Darwin Award candidate. You got lucky, you're alive.

[SuttonCS]

It's been a year and I read this adventure again. I wish I hadn't. I understand that many of you disapprove of my choices, but the righteous indignation with which some of you condemn is nonsense. I haven't hurt any of you, considering the sailboat was relatively quickly recovered and moved to salvage before leaking fluids or breaking up, I also didn't significantly damage the environment.

What I did was get into a situation for which I did not have the skills or frankly the courage to face. I would suggest that until you have faced a similar situation where you are very aware of your own mortality and have found yourself to be significantly insufficient in a multitude of ways, that you probably lack the empathy to even comment on the behavior of those that have.

Calling me a millennial is just silly, I'm nearly forty. Making personal attacks on my elderly father for joining me or any other such nonsense is silly. Deciding I was rash, impetuous or any other number of adjectives is a judgement call you are welcome to make, but I'm past caring what internet strangers think of my behavior.

The reality is I made a mistake. That mistake had financial and probably psychological consequences. I paid those consequences, not any of you. Without adventure life becomes stale. I will sail again. Here's hoping I do better next time.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by SuttonCS

It's been a year and I read this adventure again. I wish I hadn't. I understand that many of you disapprove of my choices, but the righteous indignation with which some of you condemn is nonsense. I haven't hurt any of you, considering the sailboat was relatively quickly recovered and moved to salvage before leaking fluids or breaking up, I also didn't significantly damage the environment.

What I did was get into a situation for which I did not have the skills or frankly the courage to face. I would suggest that until you have faced a similar situation where you are very aware of your own mortality and have found yourself to be significantly insufficient in a multitude of ways, that you probably lack the empathy to even comment on the behavior of those that have.

Calling me a millennial is just silly, I'm nearly forty. Making personal attacks on my elderly father for joining me or any other such nonsense is silly. Deciding I was rash, impetuous or any other number of adjectives is a judgement call you are welcome to make, but I'm past caring what internet strangers think of my behavior.

The reality is I made a mistake. That mistake had financial and probably psychological consequences. I paid those consequences, not any of you. Without adventure life becomes stale. I will sail again. Here's hoping I do better next time.

Well, its was poor decision making, but regarding your ultimate choise of actions I agree...you never know how you will respond until you are actually in that situation...never say "I would never..." as you just dont know for sure.

Regarding "hoping" to do better, that wont get you there...better thought out actions will...so whats your plan for doing better?