Violent attack, Cruisers injured, St Vincent & Grenadines, Union Island

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You can not shot people just because they are breaking into, or have broken into, your home!!!!!! That is not a proportional response.

You have be under threat of harm and you have a responsibility to reduce the threat to yourself before you resort to deadly force.

Now if someone breaks into your home and you run to the other side of the house and lock yourself into a room where you now have nowhere to run, and then the intruders break the door down and comes at you with a machete, I'm OK with blowing them away.

Quite so, in fact many countries do allow you to stand your ground , especially within the bounds of your home. Ie there is no requirement to reduce the threat. Once you have formed a reasonable opinion that your life is in danger , many jurisdictions allow you to reply with force , often " unreasonable " force

The case in Ireland with Patrick Nally shows the point. Leaving aside the mis trial , this was a farmer who wounded a burglar , then went inside , reloaded his shotgun , returned and shot him dead while he was incapacitated. He was ( on the 2nd trial ) cleared of all wrong doing using a plea of self defence. The key factor was his belief that he believed himself in mortal danger.

It's an interesting perspective and almost bizarrely mirrors the UK Tony Martin case ( both isolated , both paranoid , both attacked by Irish travellers ) both jurisdictions with identical jurisprudence. In one case a man was jailed for 5 years by a jury , in the other he was unanimously acquitted by one , under very similar conditions.


It shows that countries interpretations vary greatly on the issue of the extent of force in self defence situations.

Dave

[engele]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Quite so, in fact many countries do allow you to stand your ground , especially within the bounds of your home. Ie there is no requirement to reduce the threat. Once you have formed a reasonable opinion that your life is in danger , many jurisdictions allow you to reply with force , often " unreasonable " force The case in Ireland with Patrick Nally shows the point. Leaving aside the mis trial , this was a farmer who wounded a burglar , then went inside , reloaded his shotgun , returned and shot him dead while he was incapacitated. He was ( on the 2nd trial ) cleared of all wrong doing using a plea of self defence. The key factor was his belief that he believed himself in mortal danger. It's an interesting perspective and almost bizarrely mirrors the UK Tony Martin case ( both isolated , both paranoid , both attacked by Irish travellers ) both jurisdictions with identical jurisprudence. In one case a man was jailed for 5 years by a jury , in the other he was unanimously acquitted by one , under very similar conditions. It shows that countries interpretations vary greatly on the issue of the extent of force in self defence situations. Dave

This is true. The use of force always puts you at risk (even in the United States) of prosecution. At a minimum it is likely to be a hassle and involve multiple governments. Ideally we all avoid the situation. That said, my family's safety weighed against probable legal issues and potential jail time isn't a difficult choice for me. During our last year and a half long cruise I didn't bring any of my firearms. On the next trip I certainly will.

[johnmcntsh]

Originally Posted by engele

This is true. The use of force always puts you at risk (even in the United States) of prosecution. At a minimum it is likely to be a hassle and involve multiple governments. Ideally we all avoid the situation. That said, my family's safety weighed against probable legal issues and potential jail time isn't a difficult choice for me. During our last year and a half long cruise I didn't bring any of my firearms. On the next trip I certainly will.

\

Best not return to Mexico.

Thanks Gord May!


The Bahamas: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...s/cis_989.html
Tourists who arrive by private boat are required to declare firearms (and every round of ammunition) to Bahamian Customs, and leave firearms on the boat (in a secure compartment) while in The Bahamas. In the event of your being boarded by Customs or the Royal Bahamas Defence Force, the information on your cruising permit will be checked carefully against your actual supply. Ammo’ must match cruising permit exactly.
The Turks and Caicos: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1048.html
The importation of all firearms (including those charged with compressed air) to the Turks and Caicos is strictly forbidden without prior approval in writing from the Commissioner of Police. U.S. citizens may contact the Turks and Caicos Customs Department at (649) 946-2867 for specific information regarding customs requirements.
In practice, your guns will be confiscated for the duration of your stay, and returned immediately prior to your departure. Once you’ve retrieved your firearms, you’ll be expected to depart immediately. Spear guns, Hawaiian slings, controlled drugs, and pornography are also illegal.
The Dominican Republic: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1103.html
The DR is one of those places that confiscates your weapons, requires you to check in and out of every port, and allows cruising yachts to stop at only a few ports.
U.S. Virgin Islands:
Firearms must be declared and need a permit. For further information on firearms write to the Commissioner of Public Safety, St Thomas, USVI.
British Virgin Islands: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1079.html
Firearms must be bonded and are held by the proper authorities until time of departure. Contact BVI Customs & Immigration at (1)(284) 494-3475, the Embassy of the United Kingdom in Washington, D.C. or one of the UK''s consulates in the United States for specific information regarding customs requirements.
Anguilla: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1107.html
You need a permit to own any gun on Anguilla. Firearms should be licensed and must be securely locked on board, under the captain's control only.
Antigua & Barbuda:
Antigua and Barbuda customs authorities may enforce strict regulations concerning temporary importation into or export from Antigua and Barbuda of items such as firearms.
Fire arms must be declared and if customs are satisfied that they are safely secured, you may be allowed to keep them on board.
St. Kitts & Nevis:
Firearms must be declared and usually are bonded on board.
Guadelupe:
Non-French nationals on a tourist visit to Guadeloupe for less than 185 days can import two hunting guns and 100 cartridges for each. Other firearms are not permitted. All weapons should be declared.
Dominica:
It is illegal to take firearms into or out of Dominica. Don't even think of it - Dominican jails are very basic!
‘Noonsite’ says “Firearms must be declared.”
Martinique:
Firearms and ammunition are a heavily restricted item
Prior approval required from the French Ministry of Defense to import firearms. (Import permit issued by Directorate General of Customs, bureau D 3.)
‘Noonsite says “Firearms must be declared.”
St. Lucia:
Licensed firearms must be declared and are subject to immigration and police regulations.
Firearms must be declared, but no action is taken if staying less than three days, after which they must be sealed on board by a customs officer. Yachts temporarily imported will have weapons held by customs in Castries or possibly by police if a longer permit is obtained.
Undeclared and unlicenced firearms will be seized by the authorities.
St. Vincent & The Grenadines:
Licensed firearms must be declared and are subject to immigration and police regulations. An application must be made to the Commissioner of Police for a local licence. Undeclared and unlicenced firearms will be seized by the authorities. Firearms must be declared on arrival, and can be sealed on board, but if a yacht has no suitable locker, the firearms will be held in the custody of customs or police until departure.
Grenada:
Firearms must be declared to customs and will be sealed on board in a proper locker or kept ashore in custody until departure. A receipt will be issued by the police.
Barbados: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1022.html
Firearms must be licensed and declared immediately to customs on arrival. They will be kept in custody until departure. Penalties for non-declaration or possessing an unlicensed firearm are severe.
Trinidad & Tobago:
Firearms and ammunition must be declared on arrival and will be taken by the customs boarding officer and placed in custody at the central police station. Requests for their return prior to departure must be made to customs at least 48 hours before clearance; failure to do so may result in a delay to departure or departure without the firearms. To keep firearms in your possession during the stay, it is necessary to apply to the Commissioner of Police for a licence.
Venezuela:
Columbia: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1090.html
Colombian law prohibits tourists and business travelers from bringing firearms into Colombia. The penalty for illegal importation and/or possession of firearms is three to ten years in prison.
Mexico: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...s/cis_970.html
Vessels entering Mexican waters with firearms or ammunition on board must have a permit previously issued by the Mexican Embassy, or a Mexican consulate. Mariners do NOT avoid prosecution by declaring their weapons at the port of entry. Before traveling, mariners who have obtained a Mexican firearms permit should contact Mexican port officials to receive guidance on the specific procedures used to report and secure weapons and ammunition. Entering Mexico with a firearm, some kinds of knives or even a single round of ammunition is illegal, even if the firearm or ammunition is taken into Mexico unintentionally. The Mexican government strictly enforces its laws restricting the entry of firearms and ammunition along all land borders and at air and seaports. Violations have resulted in arrests, convictions, and long prison sentences for U.S. citizens.
Cuba: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1097.html
If a yacht is staying a long time in one of the marinas, firearms will be impounded by the Coast Guard (Guarda Frontera). If the yacht is cruising along the coast, firearms must be declared every time the boat checks in at a new port, and may be confiscated until departure, or alternatively sealed on board, placed under the responsibility of the captain. The seals and arms will be inspected when clearing out.
American vessels seeking to travel to Cuba must obtain a temporary sojourn license from the Department of Commerce. Temporary sojourn licenses are NOT available for pleasure boaters.
Cayman Islands: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1084.html
Firearms are held by customs for the duration of the yacht's stay, unless a yacht is fitted with a proper safe, which can be sealed. Spearguns and their parts are prohibited, and possession of spearguns or pole spears or Hawaiian slings, are illegal. These must be declared to customs at the first port of arrival, and will normally be taken off the boat and put under bond until departure.
Jamaica: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1147.html
The Department of State warns U.S. citizens against taking any type of firearm or ammunition into Jamaica without authorization from the Ministry of National Security. Entering Jamaica with a firearm or even a single round of ammunition is serious crime that can result in a long prison sentence.
Noon site says: Firearms must be declared and will be kept in the custody of customs until departure.
Steve Pavlidis (author of ‘Exuma Cruising Guide’ and others says: “...You are permitted to bring guns into Jamaica and if the Customs officer feels that the locker you keep them in is secure, you will be allowed to keep them aboard. If he feels the locker is not secure, he will take your weapons, give you a receipt, and deposit said weapons with the local police until you leave. The only problem you have here is when you DON'T declare your firearms and they find them.”
For more information on Steve’s excellent cruising guide series, and more, goto: Welcome to Islandhopping - Travelling by boat & bike - Bike tours and active journeys of Croatia, Greece, Montenegro, Turkey, Albania, Scotland, Spain, Vietnam
Bermuda:
All firearms and ammunition must be declared on arrival to the customs officer, who will either impound them until departure or seal them on board. Firearms include spear guns, Verey pistols and flare guns.
France:
France has stringent regulations on firearms and ammunition . As a rule, firearms which have no legitimate sporting or recreational use are not permitted entry into France.
French firearms regulations are a bit complicated, so see the French Embassy site: http://www.info-france-usa.org/intheus/customs/6000.asp
The French West Indies: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1746.html
The French West Indies consists of the islands of Martinique, Guadeloupe, St. Martin (the French side) and St. Barthelemy.
United Kingdom:
Firearms and ammunition, including gas pistols and similar weapons, may not be imported.
Spain:
Firearms must be declared.
Italy:
Firearms must be declared on arrival. The penalty for non-declaration is imprisonment.
Greece:
Firearms must be declared.
Denmark:
Firearms must be declared.
Netherlands:
All firearms must be licensed, and a copy of the licence carried. There are restrictions concerning signalling pistols. Very type flare pistols must be accompanied by a firearms certificate issued in the country of origin.
Norway:
Firearms must be declared. All firearms must have a licence from the country of origin. Firearms must be re-exported within three months, if not an application for a permit must be made.
French Polynesia:
Firearms and ammunition must be declared. If staying less than three days they can be kept on board, otherwise must be bonded by the authorities in each island until departure.
Philippines:
Firearms must be declared to customs on arrival.
Austrailia:
Firearms must be declared on entry. All military-type firearms (greater than .22), machine guns, pistols, revolvers, ammunition, as well as flick knives and knuckledusters are prohibited imports, and will be sealed on board or taken into custody at the first port of entry. Arrangements can be made to transport them to the port of departure if sufficient notice is given of that port and the date of departure. Sporting rifles and shotguns may be kept on board if a permit is obtained from the police.
New Zealand:
Firearms must be declared to customs, and are normally kept in police custody until departure. If there is an onboard safe for firearms, this may be approved by the police.
Indonesia:
Firearms may be left on board if they can be locked and sealed. If not, they will be taken ashore and bonded until the yacht leaves.
Malaysia:
Firearms must be declared and then sealed by the customs officer. A permit for firearms is required.
Sri Lanka:
Firearms must be declared on arrival and held in custody by customs until departure. One must ensure that a receipt is obtained for the firearms.
Yemen:
Firearms must be declared.
Somalia:
Firearms will be retained.
The waters in the vicinity of the Somali coast, both south and west of the Horn of Africa, are now considered to be dangerous for both commercial shipping and small boats. The US authorities have issued a warning advising vessels to stay at least 30 miles off the African coast. The east coast is just as dangerous. Boats are strongly advised to avoid passing between the island of Socotra and the African mainland, while those approaching from the east through the Gulf of Aden should stay well clear of both the Somali and Yemeni coasts, as both are considered to be dangerous. The best approach is to sail in convoy with other yachts and try to be in permanent contact with someone ashore who knows one's position at all times and could alert the authorities in an emergency.
Maldives:
Firearms must be declared on arrival and will be confiscated until departure. One must make sure one gets a receipt. One should have a firearms permit, otherwise on departure one has to go to the Ministry of Defence with the receipt to get approval for the return of the firearms. Any firearms and ammunition not declared will be seized. Firearms without a licence or official documents could be confiscated; this includes spear guns.
India:
Certain firearms and weapons are prohibited, and those permitted require a Possession Licence. All arms and ammunition will be sealed by customs and treated as bonded goods onboard the vessel.
Egypt:
A list of firearms, with their type and details, must be handed to the authorities on arrival.
Madagascar
Firearms may be removed for the duration of the stay.
Seychelles:
All arms and ammunition, including spearguns, must be handed to the police or customs on arrival and a receipt obtained. The bonded firearms will be returned on departure.
South Africa:
Firearms will be sealed by customs on board if this is possible. Otherwise firearms will be removed and bonded until departure.
And finally, my homeland
"the True North, Strong, & Free"
Canada: http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/
Click on: Information for Visitors / Non-Residents
Firearms are strictly controlled.
As of January 1, 2001, visitors bringing firearms into Canada, or planning to borrow and use firearms while in Canada, are required to declare the firearms in writing using a Non-Resident Firearm Declaration form.
Prohibited firearms include fully automatic, converted automatics, and assault-type weapons. Prohibited firearms are not allowed into Canada.
An Authorization to Transport (ATT) is required for all restricted firearms. Restricted firearms include: handguns that are not prohibited; non-prohibited semi-automatic, centre-fire firearms with a barrel length less than 470 mm; firearms that can fire after being reduced, by folding, telescoping or otherwise, to an overall length of less than 660 mm; and firearms specifically restricted by regulations (including some long guns).
Non-restricted firearms include: any rifle or shotgun that is neither restricted nor prohibited. Most ordinary rifles and shotguns are in this category. A non-restricted firearm may be imported, at the discretion of a customs officer, for purposes such as hunting during hunting season, wilderness protection, target-shooting events, gun shows, or transit through Canada. You must comply with the safe storage, display and transportation regulations, which includes disabling, and separate ammunition storage.
In advance of any travel, please contact a Canadian embassy or consulate, or the Canadian Firearms Centre (http://www.cfc.ccaf.gc.ca) for detailed information and instructions on temporarily importing firearms. In all cases, travelers must declare to Canadian Customs authorities any firearms and weapons in their possession when entering Canada. If a traveler is denied permission to bring in the firearm, there are often facilities near border crossings where firearms may be stored, pending the traveler's return to the United States. Canadian law requires that officials confiscate firearms and weapons from those crossing the border that deny having them in their possession. Confiscated firearms and weapons are never returned.
Disclaimer: The author does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information disclosed herein. The information is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended for legal purposes.
Anyone who knows a lawyer is specifically prohibited from reading this report.
Due your own due diligence !!!

[Custom30]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes, as does action with machetes, knifes, flareguns, mace, pepperspray, baseball bats, fire extinguisers, winch handles, flares, smoke signals, and so on. All that anti-gun rethoric is tiring; all these others weapons can kill as dead as a gun.

Two obvious differences.

Mace and Pepperspray are not lethal.

Machetes, flare guns, bats, extinguishers, winch handles, flares, smoke signals, and so on, have other useful purposes on a cruising boat, and can be converted for use when attacked.

Guns aboard are for only one use, unless you also have a clay pigeon thrower aboard.

Defending oneself when the SHTF with an item at hand will be more likely to be viewed as defensive than the gun which is there only for that premeditated purpose.

The other items will certainly be viewed differently by a local jury, especially if the firearm was not legal to begin with.

To lump all of these things together as equal is far from valid.


'

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by engele

This is true. The use of force always puts you at risk (even in the United States) of prosecution. At a minimum it is likely to be a hassle and involve multiple governments. Ideally we all avoid the situation. That said, my family's safety weighed against probable legal issues and potential jail time isn't a difficult choice for me. During our last year and a half long cruise I didn't bring any of my firearms. On the next trip I certainly will.

Did you encounter situations that changed your mind and why so ?

Dave

[Aussiesuede]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Did you encounter situations that changed your mind and why so ?

Dave

If he'd encountered a situation that a competent jury SHOULD consider life threatening, then it's unlikely he'd be here to tell about it. Fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of criminals are craft specific just like pretty much every other profession. Thieves have as much interest in committing murder as X-Ray Technicians have in performing open heart surgery. The world is chalk full of thieves, but relatively few murderer's in comparison. Few amongst us will ever encounter a murderer.

I managed a small specialty grocery store for a couple years in college. Months before I was hired, the owner had installed a high tech video surveillance system at CONSIDERABLE expense, but with only marginal effectiveness. His "Shrinkage" rate was above the industry norm of about 10% @ about 18%. He was losing about $3000 in product/month. 3 months after I was hired, that shrinkage rate was cut by more than 75%. He was through the roof happy until I shared with him just how I'd achieved the reduction. I told him I paused the cameras an told the employees when 'stealing' was allowed. He promptly fired me and his shrinkage rate predictably shot back through the roof. I went to work for a competitor who cared more about his bottom line than philosophy. That owner was wildly successfull, eventually opening a specialty market half a block away from that previous employer putting him out of business.

The point is to learn your environment, identify the REAL threats for what they are, effectively plan to mitigate THOSE threats, don't waste valuable time and resources worrying about unrealistic threats, and enjoy life as opposed to serving paranoia.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Aussiesuede

If he'd encountered a situation that a competent jury SHOULD consider life threatening, then it's unlikely he'd be here to tell about it. Fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of criminals are craft specific just like pretty much every other profession. Thieves have as much interest in committing murder as X-Ray Technicians have in performing open heart surgery. The world is chalk full of thieves, but relatively few murderer's in comparison. Few amongst us will ever encounter a murderer.

I managed a small specialty grocery store for a couple years in college. Months before I was hired, the owner had installed a high tech video surveillance system at CONSIDERABLE expense, but with only marginal effectiveness. His "Shrinkage" rate was above the industry norm of about 10% @ about 18%. He was losing about $3000 in product/month. 3 months after I was hired, that shrinkage rate was cut by more than 75%. He was through the roof happy until I shared with him just how I'd achieved the reduction. I told him I paused the cameras an told the employees when 'stealing' was allowed. He promptly fired me and his shrinkage rate predictably shot back through the roof. I went to work for a competitor who cared more about his bottom line than philosophy. That owner was wildly successfull, eventually opening a specialty market half a block away from that previous employer putting him out of business.

The point is to learn your environment, identify the REAL threats for what they are, effectively plan to mitigate THOSE threats, don't waste valuable time and resources worrying about unrealistic threats, and enjoy life as opposed to serving paranoia.

True enough about the nature of thieves, but I think you may be confused as to the number of murderers out there. For US 2010, 16,259 homicides (that succeeded). But you will note the number of ER visits for assault is over 2 million! People kill other people every single day. And people are attacked by other people far more often than that. I think the guy who said opinions on this subject change quickly with personal experience hit the nail on the head.



FASTSTATS - Homicide

[CaribbeanCraig]

I have read this entire thread and everyone is right. Personally I believe weapons of any sort is a horrible mark on humanity all together. Maybe someday we will better than our current state and have the courage be without. We are not there yet. In my country , a man can be perfectly sane one day , then after divorce , alcoholism and depression, can turn on himself or love ones while in possession of a firearm. ..good guys can turn bad...

The problem is that we stopped inventing .. Maybe a hydrogen fuel celled stun gun would be better...something that doesn't kill but will stop a criminal in his tracks .
anything but a black powdered weapon...Hell I have heard of soldiers carrying machine guns in the bush to only have a poison dart stuck in there neck..

But what is a boat owner to do ?...Is a flare gun a fire arm ?..Pepper spray in the wind ? lay tacks out on the deck everyday ?

[de0xyrib0se]

Originally Posted by minaret

True enough about the nature of thieves, but I think you may be confused as to the number of murderers out there. For US 2010, 16,259 homicides (that succeeded). But you will note the number of ER visits for assault is over 2 million! People kill other people every single day. And people are attacked by other people far more often than that. I think the guy who said opinions on this subject change quickly with personal experience hit the nail on the head.



FASTSTATS - Homicide

And 50,097 died from Influenza & pneumonia. So the odds of you dying from the seasonal flu are 3 times higher. The odds of you dying form a heart attack are 36 times higher for that year...odds of suicide? 2.5 times that of homicide.

[johnmcntsh]

Originally Posted by minaret

True enough about the nature of thieves, but I think you may be confused as to the number of murderers out there. For US 2010, 16,259 homicides (that succeeded). But you will note the number of ER visits for assault is over 2 million! People kill other people every single day. And people are attacked by other people far more often than that. I think the guy who said opinions on this subject change quickly with personal experience hit the nail on the head.



FASTSTATS - Homicide

And the majority of murders in the US. are committed by people that the victim knows.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by johnmcntsh

And the majority of murders in the US. are committed by people that the victim knows.

That is very true - Your drug dealer, the rival gang member, your ex, the weirdo you see at the corner every day. All people you know.

To be technically correct you are much more likely to be killed by your acquaintances rather than a total stranger. Family members are in a different category than acquaintances.

Oh, the person who tried to sell you fruit or fish as you anchored is also an acquaintance.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by johnmcntsh

And the majority of murders in the US. are committed by people that the victim knows.

Maybe it is bad idea to get to know those people in the boat next to you. Afterall I'm read a lot of boaters carry guns.

[evm1024]

Cruising is a lot different from being in a large US city or any large city for that mater. And there is a lot of differences from murder rate (actual murders committed) and attempted murder rate. With that in mind:

US crime statistics generated by the Bureau of Justice track the efficacy of various means of defending oneself in a violent attack. The statistics are remarkably consistent from year to year. (Sources are many, start with Bureau of Justice Statistics, Crime and Data Brief, "Guns and Crime"). It is primarily reason why many in the US choose a gun.

Summing up the data

Resistance to violence method vs injury rate:

Resistance with a gun - 12.1 to 17.4 % injured
Resistance by screaming - 40.1 to 48.9 % injured
No resistance - 24.7 to 27.3 % injured
Resistance by reasoning or threatening - 24.7 to 30.7 % injured
Passive resistance or evasion - 25.5 to 34.9% injured
Resisting with a knife - 29.5 to 40.3 % injured
Resisting with some other kind of weapon - 22 to 25.1 % injured
Resisting with bare hands - 50.8 to 52.1 % injured

Trade offs abound in the world - Our hearts go out to all victims with hopes for the best recovery.

[a64pilot]

I think it's pretty simple actually, and as a beginning to age warrior (retired AH-64 pilot) I thin Col. Grossman says it much better than I ever could, looks like there maybe some ports of call I'll have to miss, maybe?

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

[sailorboy1]

the real basic truth is .........

humans are violent, it is in our nature no matter we say