May I Sail to Cuba ?

[44'cruisingcat]

Just tell 'em you were hijacked.

[osirissail]

First, sailing to Cuba is really a question of being a permissionable activity as most any boat or even raft "can" sail to Cuba or the other way. Whether you will be "permitted" to sail to Cuba is the relevant question, especially for any vessel containing USA citizens/legal residents.
- - Secondly, the authority to interdict foreign vessels by the USA military/coast guard goes all the way back to the US Civil and a few other earlier wars where the Congress passed laws that permitted the US Forces to stop foreign vessels possibly carrying stuff that would have prolonged the various wars. Those laws have never been repealed and are still in effect. This came out in questions raised decades ago in relation to the then "new" situation with Cuba.
- - Occasionally, this interdiction activity by the USCG and Navy has resulted in some serious and at the same time humorous situations with our neighbors like Mexico and other Central American and South American countries. Ocean Navigator magazine used to publish some of them and the situations were almost "Keystone Cops" type stories.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by DotDun

In this example an apparent police action. (I assume you meant any foreign vessel)

CGC Midgett returns from international patrol « Coast Guard Compass

No, because an unmarked drug submersible is not likely to be flying a flag or sporting a federally registered, unique name and home port in four inch letters, as our boat does.

You can sugarcoat it all you want: Foreign guys with guns stopping me on the high seas is functionally indistiguishable from piracy, except for the pretty uniforms. I do not understand how this is legal, except because they say it is. Of course, this means I have to stop for the guys with guns, but as a suspicious terroristic foreigner in their eyes, I do not have the rights enjoyed by U.S. citizens.

Such as they may be.

I have conceptual difficulties with these issues, to say the least.

Having said that, were I in U.S. waters, I would happily comply with the Coasties in every instance, as I realize they have an important and difficult job. Of course, I am only obliged to satisfy Canadian marine safety regs (we don't have trash placards, which I've always found funny, actually), but our laws in this regard are pretty similar. Nor would I pump out the holding tank off the U.S. coast, even if I was beyond the limit. It would seem, I don't know, a little discourteous.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

No, because an unmarked drug submersible is not likely to be flying a flag or sporting a federally registered, unique name and home port in four inch letters, as our boat does.

You can sugarcoat it all you want: Foreign guys with guns stopping me on the high seas is functionally indistiguishable from piracy, except for the pretty uniforms. I do not understand how this is legal, except because they say it is. Of course, this means I have to stop for the guys with guns, but as a suspicious terroristic foreigner in their eyes, I do not have the rights enjoyed by U.S. citizens.

Such as they may be.

I have conceptual difficulties with these issues, to say the least.

Having said that, were I in U.S. waters, I would happily comply with the Coasties in every instance, as I realize they have an important and difficult job. Of course, I am only obliged to satisfy Canadian marine safety regs (we don't have trash placards, which I've always found funny, actually), but our laws in this regard are pretty similar. Nor would I pump out the holding tank off the U.S. coast, even if I was beyond the limit. It would seem, I don't know, a little discourteous.

Sorry, I didn't realize that your original question.....

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

By what right does a USCG stop a Canadian registered boat in international waters?

...was simply rhetorical and politically motivated. I accepted your question verbatim and answered it. If you have some underlying political motivation, please take it to some other forum.

FWIW, I suggest you obey the guys with the bigger guns regardless of your pre-conceived ideas about their motivation.

[perchance]

Just tell the State Department your going to Cuba to spy for Uncle Sam. Hell they'll probably foot the bill.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

. . . You can sugarcoat it all you want: Foreign guys with guns stopping me on the high seas is functionally indistiguishable from piracy, except for the pretty uniforms. I do not understand how this is legal, except because they say it is. Of course, this means I have to stop for the guys with guns, but as a suspicious terroristic foreigner in their eyes, I do not have the rights enjoyed by U.S. citizens.
Such as they may be.
I have conceptual difficulties with these issues, to say the least. . .

I agree with your "conceptual difficulties" on the issue but the controlling reality is the 800 lb Gorilla always trumps the smaller guy. Or as you put it, the guys with the biggest guns get their way. Always has been that way and always will be.

[sww914]

Looks like I'll have to get all religious like for a little while and pass out some bibles or Korans maybe or I could volunteer at some hospital as a part of some church mission? Maybe I'll start a one man "save the Cubans from their cigars" anti-smoking campaign and register as some humanitarian blaa blaa. They have a leper colony there? maybe I could go feed some leprosy patients. Dogs? I could save some Cuban dogs and feel good about it. Maybe Cuban dogs have self esteem issues and they need some doggie makeovers? I could do that. Wash some doggies and give them a little trim? I'll start a foundation. I might be looking for volunteers. Possibly some of you could come help out the Cubans or their dogs and get a free pass?

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Sorry, I didn't realize that your original question.....



...was simply rhetorical and politically motivated. I accepted your question verbatim and answered it. If you have some underlying political motivation, please take it to some other forum.

FWIW, I suggest you obey the guys with the bigger guns regardless of your pre-conceived ideas about their motivation.

My question was practical and not politically motivated, as the American position on Cuba, if about politics, would have been solved many decades ago.

As for rhetoric...nope. We are planning a circ from Canada. Avoiding pirates is just part of the planning.

As for obeying the guys with bigger guns, is that your definition of freedom or am I unable to hear over the bark of that big, hot barrel?

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by osirissail

I agree with your "conceptual difficulties" on the issue but the controlling reality is the 800 lb Gorilla always trumps the smaller guy. Or as you put it, the guys with the biggest guns get their way. Always has been that way and always will be.

I don't object to bigger guns. I object to them being aimed at us, non-Americans and allies, on the high seas. But I suppose if kidnapping, detention without charge and handovers to torture states can be termed "extraordinary rendition", then extraterritorial, illegal search and seizure can be termed "working for freedom".

Orwell had some thoughts in a book on how governments could word things. It's probably no longer taught, alas.

My sailing to Cuba and not entering U.S. waters should be of no concern to U.S. law enforcement.

The fact that Americans have handed their rights to saltwater, among other, cops...no matter what their other good works...should be of interest to Americans, I would think. After all, it was the heavy-handed tactics of government forces that created your democratic bastion, wasn't it?

And before you come to any conclusions, both grandfathers and my father participated in various, better wars and my brother-in-law is on a SWAT team. We're not really soft-hearted liberals at all.

[Capt Phil]

As an expatriot Canadian who has lived and sailed US, Mexican and Costa Rican waters, believe me, the USCG have a long reach and are armed to the teeth, S/V Alchemy. They are not to be blown off or kidded with, if you are stopped and boarded outside US waters. These guys have had some really hairy experiences both off the west and east coasts of Mexico as well as waters between South and North America in an effort to control the illicit drug runners, many off whom are armed as well if not better than the Coasties. They roam far and wide and country of registry is not an impediment if they want to talk with you. I was boarded between Gudaloupe Island and Cedros Island off the Mexican west coast out a couple of hundred miles a few years back. Found them to be professional, courteous and business like but no nonsense. They did a thorough search, checked ships papers (US documented), passports and radio equipment before they left. They also checked in with someone in the US to see if there were any outstanding warrants or something, I guess. This whole effort is driven by the hughly profitable drug business which the US govt is committed to control.
Additionally, on the Caribbean side, people smuggling is also big business, I understand.
I've talked casually with USCG personnel shoreside in the US and they don't relish their role as seagoing police but are tasked to do what they can to interdict the bad guys in addition to their search and rescue activities.
I don't so much view their activities as limiting freedom as doing what they can to protect it. Just my opinion... Capt Phil

[S/V Alchemy]

It still doesn't define under what authority they do these searches outside of U.S. waters.

As for the drug trade, if they really wanted to break it, they could legalize and tax its use, and execute non-approved dealers. Harvest 'em for organs, like the Chinese. Whatever. But as is, it's a phony war that screws up poor countries and makes for strange bedfellows...much like the equally bogus war on terrorism, or, to return to topic, the war on Communism, which is a failed Russian franchise with very few outlets still open.

I believe you, Capt. Phil, but I don't have to like Team America: World Police.

[sarafina]

This thread has covered the original query, which was wondering what was involved in sailing to Cuba. It has now devolved into a political baiting match.

I recommend you all take it some where it is appreciated and appropriate;

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