Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

[CaptainIglo]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Oc

It may be best to ask someone doing it.
This family are sailing on a FP Saba 50 cat, fully electric with a load of lithium batteries, solar and wind gen with diesel gen backup.
Boat name Ja Japami www.JaJapami.com
Go straight to the source.

Hi Jeffrey, I skimmed through all their posts but can´t seem to find anything on electric propulsion. Can you point me in the right direction?

[john61ct]

You can use electric propulsion.

Still need diesel to generate power, whether direct, or buffered by batteries.

Solar, wind won't be a significant contributor.

And safety requires having plenty of power on demand.

Will cost a lot of money, for very little added value.

[Franziska]

@a64

Love your answer! "... Want to be an environmentalist? Go save an old boat and cruise on it, your “footprint” is much smaller that way, but I suspect most Hollywood type environmentalists aren’t, it’s just fashionable, and they want to appear to be that way, cause what environmentalist could justify Mansions, and vacation homes etc?... "

[mbartosch]

Originally Posted by CaptainIglo

Hi Jeffrey, I skimmed through all their posts but can´t seem to find anything on electric propulsion. Can you point me in the right direction?

Unfortunately there is zero information on the technology of Jajapami on their blog. We met the owners one year ago in northern Spain (they moored next to our boat in the marina) and we got invited on their boat where I had the chance to have a look at the drive system. (In turn, the transfer skipper was glad to have a look at Entropy's LiFePO4 battery bank...)

Jajapami is a 50' catamaran built as a prototype by the manufacturer to test the waters (pun intended) with all-electric propulsion. The boat was literally a few days out of the factory when we met them.

If I remember correctly the two electrical drives were about 10 kW each. They looked like the OceanVolt SD10 but at the time I did not actually make a mental note.
Of course they have a huge 48 V LiFePO4 drive battery bank which looked very sleek (and expensive). Our own DIY 400 Ah LiFePO4 bank pales in comparison...
For recharging the battery banks they have solar panels (of course) and a diesel generator. The generator automatically kicks in for restarting the battery bank based on SoC if I remember correctly. It will not keep up with the full demand of the electrical drives but if they ease down throttle to about half they can go for an extended period of time without depleting the batteries totally.

The system looks beautiful and it was marvellous to hear (or not hear) the engines when they did maneuvers in the marina.

The downside: the first drive developed a problem within the first few days, they arrived at our port with the sail drive generating grinding noises. Later I heard that they had someone from the drive manufacturer flown in to one of their next ports to repair it. If I am not mistaken the transmission had a gear failure. Possibly a problem of too high torque of the electrical drive?

Although I am an EE myself and love technology I would think twice about going on a round-the-world trip on a prototype boat whose drive I cannot repair and for which (currently) an European specialist needs to be flown in to fix problems.
The good thing about Diesels is - there are mechanics capable of repairing them all over the world. Howerver, I love our electric dinghy outboard and the LiFePO4 mini dinghy battery banks.

[CaptainIglo]

Originally Posted by mbartosch

Unfortunately there is zero information on the technology of Jajapami on their blog. We met the owners one year ago in northern Spain (they moored next to our boat in the marina) and we got invited on their boat where I had the chance to have a look at the drive system. (In turn, the transfer skipper was glad to have a look at Entropy's LiFePO4 battery bank...)



Jajapami is a 50' catamaran built as a prototype by the manufacturer to test the waters (pun intended) with all-electric propulsion. The boat was literally a few days out of the factory when we met them.



If I remember correctly the two electrical drives were about 10 kW each. They looked like the OceanVolt SD10 but at the time I did not actually make a mental note.

Of course they have a huge 48 V LiFePO4 drive battery bank which looked very sleek (and expensive). Our own DIY 400 Ah LiFePO4 bank pales in comparison...

For recharging the battery banks they have solar panels (of course) and a diesel generator. The generator automatically kicks in for restarting the battery bank based on SoC if I remember correctly. It will not keep up with the full demand of the electrical drives but if they ease down throttle to about half they can go for an extended period of time without depleting the batteries totally.



The system looks beautiful and it was marvellous to hear (or not hear) the engines when they did maneuvers in the marina.



The downside: the first drive developed a problem within the first few days, they arrived at our port with the sail drive generating grinding noises. Later I heard that they had someone from the drive manufacturer flown in to one of their next ports to repair it. If I am not mistaken the transmission had a gear failure. Possibly a problem of too high torque of the electrical drive?



Although I am an EE myself and love technology I would think twice about going on a round-the-world trip on a prototype boat whose drive I cannot repair and for which (currently) an European specialist needs to be flown in to fix problems.

The good thing about Diesels is - there are mechanics capable of repairing them all over the world. Howerver, I love our electric dinghy outboard and the LiFePO4 mini dinghy battery banks.

Thanks for your reply. Glad to finally hear from someone which actual (almost) first hand experience!

Frankly, I, as a cruiser forum newbie, was a bit disheartened by the rough and dismissive tone of many replies. It seems clear to me that this is the future, even if we’re still a couple of iterations away from electric being competitive with diesel for sail boats. I’m guessing in 10 years time no one will want to buy a new Diesel engine. After all it’s all a matter of energy density in batteries and that (together with efficiency of solar) is increasing each year. For sure solar on a boat is unlikely to ever be sufficient as the sole source for charging to provide electric propulsion but it still seems to me that a combination of a hybrid propulsion/ generator like the ocean volt, solar panels and a backup diesel generator has real potential in the future.

The electric car revolution is well underway and that means the cost of batteries will drastically come down in the next years then it’s a no brainer.

[john61ct]

Even if 5000x the energy density becomes available cheaper than lead costs today,

the **production** of sufficient energy for safety and long distance cruising needs requires burning fossil fuels.

except for those willing to just sit and wait long periods for winds

or those just hopping along near a coast regularly checking into mains power sources.

Where to you draw the line between a "backup" diesel genny, and one that provides 90% of the actual energy used?

And absolutely, a boat designed for purpose is required to make the alt-energy sources more practical.

At this point talking millions.

Sorry / not sorry to be objective and realistic, I would hope you'd be even more disappointed actually spending lots of money to be a pioneer with a back full of arrows.

[a64pilot]

There are so many negative posts I guess cause seemingly weekly someone comes on here and starts talking about things that are physically just not possible.
Yeah, I wish it would work too, and maybe one day it will, but it won’t be in ten years.
Yes the electric car thing is going strong, but is it really any kind of answer? I’m constantly surprised at just how foolish people can be, to think for example that an electric car is a zero emission vehicle, where does the power come from, the wall of course, there is this endless supply in the wall.
I have said before, and I’ll say again, the average US household uses about 30 KWH a day, and has more than 2 cars. Electric cars on average each use more power than the average household, so to operate two electric cars will triple the energy consumption of the average household, approximately. Of course is they have long commutes, it will more than that and if they only drive a couple of blocks, well less, and not too many zero to 60 in 2 sec bursts either.

However it’s my contention that the way forward is not by shifting energy sources, but to become more efficient and use less.
There are people who travel thousands and thousands of miles and don’t burn a drop of fossil fuel.
Those are the ones to emulate. The electric car is at its best a joke, it gives some the illusion and most importantly the smugness they desire, but it doesn’t do much for actual energy savings, it’s just shifts consumption from gasoline to electric which is at its best I guess generated by burning natural gas. We need to cut energy consumption, not shift sources.
We really need to be in public transportation and on bicycles, but we won’t do that.
What is the fascination of electric propulsion? I’ll tell you, some have been sold a bill of goods, it’s just consumerism. Remember the Suburban SUV Hybrid? Good God what was that about, now it’s Tesla’s.

A sail boat is Solar powered, and I’ll bet it is the most efficient vessel there is, uses zero fossil fuel, never needs to run a Diesel to recharge. What’s wrong with that? Tough to beat that efficiency, and as many as you want are available for less than the cost of one government subsidized Tesla.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

… However it’s my contention that the way forward is not by shifting energy sources, but to become more efficient and use less. … The electric car … just shifts consumption from gasoline to electric which is at its best I guess generated by burning natural gas. We need to cut energy consumption, not shift sources. We really need to be in public transportation and on bicycles, but we won’t do that. ...

A64, are you also jumping on the negative bandwagon? Electricity can be generated with almost no emissions using various forms of solar, wind, nuclear, tidal, hydroelectric, or even microwaves from space. Doing so in large-scale installations is usually more efficient than smaller single-household installations. So shifting our energy consumption from fossil fuels to electric (& producing cleaner electricity) has the potential to greatly help our environment.

EVs currently have battery disposal issues, but I suspect (hope) they're going to grow in popularity, probably explosively. While I'd love to see the end of the internal destruction engine, I agree that it's going to be hard to find a cheaper & more energy dense solution than diesel for us cruisers. But we're an inventive society. I have hope. And it's threads like this that get folks thinking. We have to provide solutions, not just tell folks not to do what they've always done.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

There are so many negative posts I guess cause seemingly weekly someone comes on here and starts talking about things that are physically just not possible.
Yeah, I wish it would work too, and maybe one day it will, but it won’t be in ten years.
Yes the electric car thing is going strong, but is it really any kind of answer? I’m constantly surprised at just how foolish people can be, to think for example that an electric car is a zero emission vehicle, where does the power come from, the wall of course, there is this endless supply in the wall.
I have said before, and I’ll say again, the average US household uses about 30 KWH a day, and has more than 2 cars. Electric cars on average each use more power than the average household, so to operate two electric cars will triple the energy consumption of the average household, approximately. Of course is they have long commutes, it will more than that and if they only drive a couple of blocks, well less, and not too many zero to 60 in 2 sec bursts either.

However it’s my contention that the way forward is not by shifting energy sources, but to become more efficient and use less.
There are people who travel thousands and thousands of miles and don’t burn a drop of fossil fuel.
Those are the ones to emulate. The electric car is at its best a joke, it gives some the illusion and most importantly the smugness they desire, but it doesn’t do much for actual energy savings, it’s just shifts consumption from gasoline to electric which is at its best I guess generated by burning natural gas. We need to cut energy consumption, not shift sources.
We really need to be in public transportation and on bicycles, but we won’t do that.
What is the fascination of electric propulsion? I’ll tell you, some have been sold a bill of goods, it’s just consumerism. Remember the Suburban SUV Hybrid? Good God what was that about, now it’s Tesla’s.

A sail boat is Solar powered, and I’ll bet it is the most efficient vessel there is, uses zero fossil fuel, never needs to run a Diesel to recharge. What’s wrong with that? Tough to beat that efficiency, and as many as you want are available for less than the cost of one government subsidized Tesla.

There are very good reasons for electric cars. Cost: diesel produces 1 kWh power at the wheel for about 24c of fuel cost. Petrol a little worse. A KWh from the grid costs a fraction of that in fuel to make. About 4c to 5c. And it goes from grid to wheel with little loss. Grid gas generators achieve this with cheaper fuel and have a much higher efficiency than diesel engines. Pollution: can be a lot less with power from the grid and gets NOX out of cities. Renewable: can be from the grid, not with diesel efficiently. Efficiency: electric cars are by design very efficient. They regenerate power when slowing for example. I think they are the future for cars. Just for cars.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by poiu

Efficiency: electric cars are by design very efficient. They regenerate power when slowing for example. I think they are the future for cars. Just for cars.

Yes, braking regen is a huge reason for their value, completely absent for boats.

Mains recharging, coupled with mass alternatives-sourced grid power, is the other big enabler for land vehicles.

But asking the vehicle to collect its own power via wind, hydro and/or solar, is a non-starter, full stop.

[inlogo]

I read and researched about it. But i didn't find out the answer @@

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

A64, are you also jumping on the negative bandwagon? Electricity can be generated with almost no emissions using various forms of solar, wind, nuclear, tidal, hydroelectric, or even microwaves from space. Doing so in large-scale installations is usually more efficient than smaller single-household installations. So shifting our energy consumption from fossil fuels to electric (& producing cleaner electricity) has the potential to greatly help our environment.

EVs currently have battery disposal issues, but I suspect (hope) they're going to grow in popularity, probably explosively. While I'd love to see the end of the internal destruction engine, I agree that it's going to be hard to find a cheaper & more energy dense solution than diesel for us cruisers. But we're an inventive society. I have hope. And it's threads like this that get folks thinking. We have to provide solutions, not just tell folks not to do what they've always done.

We will get there, eventually.
I have two hangups. It’s time we as a Society sit back and decide that we don’t need 5000+ lb full size SUV’s and Pickup trucks to move our urban population around one at a time. Of course they have to be four wheel drive, you know, cause it’s fashionable.

Second I have an issue with supporting rich people’s toys with tax payers money, the Tesla for example, if they are so great, why do they need to be subsidized?

However my main concern is that if we use the Tesla as the example as so many want to hold it up to be, then we are going to have to hugely expand our electrical generating capacity, it can be done, but we don’t have to.

Do you remember in the 70’s the way forward was hydrogen fueled internal combustion vehicles, the technology was there, pretty much zero emissions, just use electricity to change water to hydrogen and oxygen, then the energy is released when the two are recombined.
Now it’s electric, and I don’t know if there is much difference really, batteries replace hydrogen, you still need to have a MASSIVE increase in electrical generation. But you know, we don’t really. If we didn’t live in McMansions, and need to drive 5000 lbs four wheel drive SUVs, we could easily live with what power we can now generate, the secret is efficiency, but that isn’t where the focus is, and I think it should be.

I think In all my wisdom that they way forward is not the Tesla, but to make an electric vehicle much smaller, much lighter and way more efficient, but that is not what the public wants. We want zero to sixty in two sec I guess and think an automobile that only the wealthy can own is OK to be government subsidized, and that’s nuts, in my opinion.

The Prius for example. It would have been child’s play to push the Prius to 75 mpg or maybe beyond with the gen III introduced in 2010. Toyota had already done things like topo maps so that the computer could take advantage of the regen opportunity of hills, and know when to use the battery to climb a hill etc. But Toyota is a company, and like all companies they are in the game to make money, and gas was becoming cheaper and they knew the public didn’t want a more efficient car, so the 2010 Prius, is a bigger, heavier and more powerful car with a bigger engine than the 2009 model, but kept the identical fuel mileage, where it could just as easily have gotten smaller, lighter and WAY more efficient.

No, I’m more impressed with the tiny house, live off of the grid movement than I am with Tesla.

The interesting thing to me is the fact that it’s the low buck budget cruisers that are the real environmentalist, that burn almost zero fuel, low impact etc. They don’t have high buck fancy electric vehicles, they don’t need them, however I bet that on average they consume a tiny fraction of the world’s assets as the average urban electric automobile owner. Because they are efficient, they consume very, very little, they repurpose things and make things last, and that is I think the way forward.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes, braking regen is a huge reason for their value, completely absent for boats. … But asking the vehicle to collect its own power via wind, hydro and/or solar, is a non-starter, full stop.

Excuse me?!? One of the big advantages of electric propulsion is that it can recharge the batteries while sailing (assuming your batteries have the capacity to get you to where the wind is blowing). Lots of boats pay good money for towing generators. The biggest problem with electric propulsion is range, as the energy density of batteries is still much lower than diesel.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

… I have two hangups. It’s time we as a Society …

Umm... As a moderator, isn't one of your jobs to minimize thread drift?

[a64pilot]

Very, very few people tow generators. I’ve never met anyone that does.
Largely because they go through a lot of work and money eeking the last tenth of a knot of speed, who wants to drag a drogue?
These regen numbers that people are posting, do you have any idea how much power it takes to regen 3 KW? Very few boats could do it, forget how much speed they would lose.
If it was feasible, then we would all be towing generators, but we don’t.
A very few cases it works, but not in a cruising boat, and this is a generator that is made to be most efficient as a generator.
See I know a little about props, you make a prop efficient as a driven thing or as a driving thing, not both, unfortunately.