Replace Diesel with electric engine

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by Popaul

If you understand german, the magazine Palstek www.palstek.de published some very helpful and interesting articles in the past 3 magazines.

German language isn't the problem but missing links ...

[s/v Jedi]

I agree that electric will be just fine. If you need to leave a packed anchorage and want to use the motor for lack of the right wind, but your battery isn’t recharged yet... the may be wait another day. Tomorrow the wind may be right or the battery has enough juice.

It always worked like that for sailing. Ships had to wait for the right season sometimes. Accept it, enjoy it.

If you can cheat by having a genset that can power the drive then you are way ahead the sailors of old.

I am pretty sure sailboats can pass bridges under sail when they have no other propulsion. I have seen complete idiots trying to sail boats, especially on the ICW and in the US in general. I believe this is because they are allowed out there without formal training, without passing exams for proficiency etc. and it’s understandable that the bridge operators are completely fed up with that.

I have sailed all my life and the first 10 years just in open dinghies with sails only. We could get everywhere, even upwind on a 20’ wide channel. Those were the days you really learn how to sail, how to manoeuvre etc. Those who experienced that have a completely different view on what is safe to do under sail than sailors who start at later age and skipped the dinghies.

BTW the correct terms are tacking up a channel and gybing down it again

[tanglewood]

For the Greenline owner, given the benefit you get from when and where you use the electric motor, which seems to be for quiet entry/exit to harbors, do you feel the added complexity of the hybrid system is worth it? It seems you are "buying" a quieter arrival or departure, and not much more?


Interestingly the big advantage you cited was the indirect benefit of having a large house battery bank for extended anchoring in quiet. And of course that can be accomplished with significantly less complexity by eliminating the whole propulsion part of the system.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

For the Greenline owner, given the benefit you get from when and where you use the electric motor, which seems to be for quiet entry/exit to harbors, do you feel the added complexity of the hybrid system is worth it? It seems you are "buying" a quieter arrival or departure, and not much more?


Interestingly the big advantage you cited was the indirect benefit of having a large house battery bank for extended anchoring in quiet. And of course that can be accomplished with significantly less complexity by eliminating the whole propulsion part of the system.

Not only that... for the peaceful quiet stay at anchor, the battery only needs to be sized to make it through the night, with solar power generation taking over during the day for both recharging the battery enough for the coming night as well as powering what needs power directly during the day.

A house battery bank isn’t a power source unless you pop new ones in when they run out. They are just a buffer to overcome downtime of our power generation systems.

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Not only that... for the peaceful quiet stay at anchor, the battery only needs to be sized to make it through the night, with solar power generation taking over during the day for both recharging the battery enough for the coming night as well as powering what needs power directly during the day.

A house battery bank isn’t a power source unless you pop new ones in when they run out. They are just a buffer to overcome downtime of our power generation systems.

Sure seems like a "source" to me on the hook, with silent 120VAC, including a European home-sized stand up fridge-reefer that seems to run less than a third of the time keeping the beer cold and frozen foods/ice cream frozen, and efficient reverse cycle AC (rarely needed here, tho).

To address Tanglewood's points, we consider silent whale watching on Monterey Bay for a couple of hours a magical and transporting experience, as well as the silent last 5-10 down-wind miles back to harbor without diesel fumes for those in the cockpit - or salon too if back door open.

But what makes it all work is the 5KW charging ability of the motor/gen - basically 2hrs. @ over 2000RPM to re-fill the 12KW 48V bank. Greenline does make a version without the motor/gen, w/ 1450 KW solar and same battery pack, for about $20,000 US less new IIRC.

Pete

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

Sure seems like a "source" to me on the hook, with silent 120VAC, including a European home-sized stand up fridge-reefer that seems to run less than a third of the time keeping the beer cold and frozen foods/ice cream frozen, and efficient reverse cycle AC (rarely needed here, tho).

Really? So you think that the energy that comes out was actually created inside it? Well, it isn’t, the energy was put in there while it was being charged.

Solar panels, diesel generator sets, engine mounted alternators, wind generators: those are all energy sources. The house battery bank is a buffer, in tech talk an accumulator. You store energy in it so you can use it sometime later.

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Really? So you think that the energy that comes out was actually created inside it? Well, it isn’t, the energy was put in there while it was being charged.

Solar panels, diesel generator sets, engine mounted alternators, wind generators: those are all energy sources. The house battery bank is a buffer, in tech talk an accumulator. You store energy in it so you can use it sometime later.

Thanks for the scholarly clarification of what I thought appeared rather by magic! What you describe are simply mediums of energy transfer, not energy "sources" if you want to split hairs or hares. Solar radiation from energy released from solar core gravitational pressure fusion of two hydrogen atoms into helium; "dinosaur juice" from gravitational compression of organic deposits; wind from atmospheric pressure gradient variations - all are "sources" of the above energy, which could be taken back add infinitum to the "Big Bang" And before that - it's all magical, isn't it?

[Popaul]

Hi Dirk,
Seems that the single articles are not yet available by now.
I suggest to start with number 1/20 on www.palstek.de
The articles page 94 elektrische Antriebe III (with conclusion of the different possibilities, like Hybrid with Diesel- or Hydrogenerator) and 106 Bordstromversorgung how to link the different charging tools to the accus

[sandy stone]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

This is a perfect of example of where an electric motor would be convenient for the OP or where I utilize a sculling oar for a few minutes.

Regarding light and variable winds: catch each puff of wind and anticipate shifts in advance. Was very useful the 3 times I sailed through the dismal swamp when the wind was forward of the beam as sometimes it was directly on the nose. Because of shifting wind direction and anticipation it was possible even in such narrow canals. Twice in 20 miles the shift lasted too long and had to drop the head sail for a minute.


What is practical or not is an opinion, I hope we can agree on at least that. I do know that 50-80ft wide is enough room to tack and so for at least 90% what I have seen it is wide enough for tacking. The OP's boat might require more tacking space but surely not more than 150ft wide which is still most of the ICW.

For example, I tacked down adams creek last season because the wind was blowing directly against me there and it was at least twice as wide as it needed to be.

The rest of places you can wait for a wind that just isn't directly on the nose (upwind is ok) and this isn't really unlimited time, but could be a day or 2 at anchor perhaps.

A few times I arrived first because I sailed the outside while they motored the inside.
ICW isn't best if you are in a rush to get there.


Which bridge is illegal to sail through? This keeps being mentioned, but the actual "rule" is elusive. I would like to read it.

I have beat upwind under a number of opening bridges. The bridge structure greatly influences the wind. The operators are helpful and understand that I don't have power besides sail. I have never been refused a bridge opening and never been told afterwards not to do it again.

Saying that it is unsafe does not sound convincing when I have done this enough times and never found it to be a danger.

Can you justify why it is actually unsafe or are you posting this because you are uncomfortable by the idea that someone else could have an alternative style of navigation?

I suggest most competent cruisers will feel safe sailing in these situations especially if they have a reliable electric motor they can use at the flip of a switch unlike a diesel which might not start in time, so relying on it could lead to disappointment.

Even if not actually unsafe or illegal, it is certainly inconsiderate to use the entire width of a channel or bridge opening while tacking - especially at a bridge that has boats waiting on both sides to pass through. There is a drawbridge where I sail consisting of a railroad and highway next to each other, so an extended passage, that I would definitely consider dangerous to sail through. Also, it's quite a bit different short-tacking a 50' boat as opposed to a 27' boat.

To Adelie - Do you really believe in your heart that a trolling motor will push a Cal 34 at 3 knots?

[capt_TE]

Be sure you have enough power in tidal water with your electric powered boat. Friend of mine exchanged the diesel engine with electric motor on a Laurinkoster 32 and got in severe problems on the coasts of England due to strong currents and not enough engine power.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by sandy stone

.....
To Adelie - Do you really believe in your heart that a trolling motor will push a Cal 34 at 3 knots?

Why would I believe that? I didn’t write anything about trolling motors in my post about the Cal 34. Did you not closely read my post or was that a rhetorical device attempting to put words in my mouth?

I posted that the motor vendor I’d dealt with indicated 960w could likely push the boat at 3.2kt. I thought it would be more like 1,000w for 3kt.

Implicit in my post, like the thread in general, is the replacement of the boat’s fuel motor with an electric motor. As such the motor would be turning the normal propellor for such a boat and thus would have significantly higher efficiency than a trolling motor.

[dalemann]

Hi. That is an exciting idea and looks like a polished bit of engineering. Hopefully it does not require running your generator all night in some quiet anchorage.

[macmac12]

There are no electric engines, only electric motors, at least as our lexicon allows. Until boats are able to encounter the effects of going downhill or carrying untapped inertial PE, hybrid and electric vessels will remain short range novelties. Certainly not the stuff of long range global cruising, where it is patently unsafe in its absence when needed. Better to simply go completely sail dependent and not kid yourself about what your expectations should be.

If it pleases you, sail your auxiliary fitted "normal" sailboat as if you were Ponce de Leon, live long and prosper.

IMHO

[Mauruuru]

I am getting ready to replace my (perfectly good) diesel too and I would offer two comments first not sure why your battery is so large for a sailing vessel especially if you are planning on any regen while sailing. You only need 4-6 hours of capacity and with Lithiul you can go well below 50% SOC. Remember the diesel generator wants load on it and one of the main benefits of the diesel gen/electric drive is greatly improved total cycle efficiency and batteries become a buffer that enables this Second comment is I would keep house and drive batteries separate you wouldn’t want any inadvertent load or fault in the house load affect your ability to motor.
And maybe a third for all those dini fuel supporters comments- you only need about 1/2 if the hp or kw your current diesel is rated but make sure the motor has a reasonable peak duty time rating for those situations where you need to get a bit more thrust to overvome a setting current or wind etc
The Electrical Power Engineer in me likes your drawings!

[MAJICDAN]

Looks like a good idea for weekend cruises.
In the 6000 or so miles we traveled last year we ran the diesel, usually at a fast idle, for about 2000 miles.
With my lifestyle, Electric makes no sense to me.