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Old 03-02-2020, 10:44   #76
JHW
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Yes, what you state is what my research indicated before I acquired a boat with a sophisticated electric motor installed by a company known for advanced technical understanding and award-wining designs . Just trying to share what an actual user, not a theoretical user experienced. I have been stuck in an expensive marina, far from home, waiting for parts that took days to locate. The parts were very expensive. The available technical advice was hard to find and then only suggestions. Many hours on the phone. The only time I have ever been towed after a lifetime of sailing is due to my "more reliable" electric motor failure. Just saying.
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Old 03-02-2020, 11:20   #77
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

I find many of these arguments against electric drives red herrings. Here's how i look at it. For someone that is just a day sailor, it could make a lot of sense just using it in and out of the harbor. For cruisers, there's a grey area imo.


For the cruiser that intends to have a diesel engine and a generator, I don't see how you can lose. Generators are far more efficient at charging batteries vs the engine. Second, going electric would cut the number of diesel engines you have to maintain by half. The added bonus is once in a while you can pull into port or leave the dock on battery alone.



You don't install electric for range. You install a generator for range. You get the added benefit of a hydro generator which is nice to use, especially overnight as your making way.

For those that would cruise without a generator, I think e-propulsion is a tougher proposition.

Now, in situations where the motor isn't strong enough or parts are hard to source, this isn't an industry problem. That's a vendor problem. I'm sure some experience the same problems with other parts on their boats.



I love the idea of electric propulsion. It's well proven. I despise the fact that the companies selling it are gouging people heavily. The prices they're charging are absurd.
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Old 03-02-2020, 11:47   #78
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by PSea View Post

For those that would cruise without a generator, I think e-propulsion is a tougher proposition.
The majority of cruisers on the average size boat of 35 feet have solar or wind generators and do just fine with a diesel.
Not only that, my diesel auxiliary is 50 years old and runs strong.
How long will a battery system last? Ten years (my wild guess)?
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Old 03-02-2020, 12:35   #79
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

This is a fascinating discussion and something I think many of us are looking into and considering.

Reading through the threads and numerous comments, pretty much everyone is looking at the period while you're sailing and while that is interesting, it's not the majority of the time....

We have looked long and hard at this and cannot see the advantage while cruising as the vast majority of your time aboard will be spent at anchor or if you can afford it, in a marina.

Our personal cruising plans are distant shores, secluded bays and remote islands and even then, the vast majority of our time will be spent at anchor exploring, so to spend a huge amount of money and loose important storage space to battery banks to be a little more efficient while sailing, simply makes little sense.

This was also brought home to us while running an 82 ft motor catamaran, where the extra cost of adding a mast and sails was the equivalent to at minimum the fuel requirements for 2 circumnavigations.

Most people have finite resources and as such have some sort of cruising kitty (bank) that defines where they can spend their cruising funds.

I know that we always try and look at a cost benefit and for sure the areas to spend money are things like proper insulation of the entire boat, proper storage with bins, fabulous bedding, really nice plates and cutlery, reliable equipment like watermaker's, big windlasses, etc....

The vast majority of your time cruising will be spent at anchor and unless you want to run AC, you'll be able to keep batteries topped up with a few solar panels and a wind generator and all that huge expense to convert to electric will be just that, a huge expense that could have been used for adventures, experiences and things that make your life better and cruising more enjoyable....

Just a thought.....
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Old 03-02-2020, 12:41   #80
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Take a look at Integrel - it might suit. It is a type of hybrid solution. Full disclosure I work with the Integrel team - but definitely believe in the product and have seen it work.
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Old 03-02-2020, 13:24   #81
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Hi all,

We are already sailing for 2,5 years just electric. We started from Amsterdam, and now we are in New Zealand. 42 feet, ketch. We have a 15kW Electric engine 48V with Lithium batteries. We have a small generator 5kW just for case. And for the Panama canal it.
We are very happy with the electric engie. Old Perkins diesel engie is already broken for over 1 year. If you have any question, let me know.
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Old 03-02-2020, 13:25   #82
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Thumbs up Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbu09 View Post
Hi, I am new here, please let me know if I post in the wrong spot or make any other rooky mistakes

coming year, we plan to build out the system so it is fit to sail us home from France to New Zealand.

.



The drive system will most likely be a oceanvolt AXC which runs on 48V.

The plan for the battery bank looks like this at the moment:



cheers
Lenz
Simply awesome to see another kiwi looking to kick at least some of the fossil fuels over the side. try not listen to all the negatives. I am not sure you will get positive help on this forum which is partly why your question has so much off topic cold water pored on it. do feel free to message me.

What you hope to do is at least on my radar but the ocean volt system is just a bit to rich for me (although I do love their system esp the promise of regen and would do it tomorrow if money was no limitation, another issue for me was a limit on how fast the matching props could go - not fast enough to allow my cat to plane).

One comment I feel I should make is that I think 48 nominal is actually 16 LiFe cells at 3.2v (not 15 as pictured) this is because even a flooded lead acid battery has a open cct voltage above 50v so 15 x 3.2 =48v is not equivalent to 24 x 2.16 give or take = 52v from my FLA bank. 16 x 3.2 is close at 51.2v but with much better load charistics as you know. Also 16 LiFe cells like my own 400Ah cells charge at about 3.625v or max 58v for 16 cells which is in spec for most systems including victron etc.

Good luck! and don't listen to all those who come from countries without renewable sources of electricity (and think it all comes from coal oil and nuclear)

Best Wishes

Mark
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Old 03-02-2020, 15:21   #83
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Couple comments after looking on your diagrams
1. You should have 16 cells in each bank. You can confirm this with Victron.
2. To take power from your 5 batteries (48V) bank connect negative to first battery (48V) and positive to the last battery or vice versa.

Regards

Greg
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Old 03-02-2020, 16:11   #84
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbu09 View Post
Thanks everyone for your insights and the worries everyone shares about us and our travels.
In terms of regen, Amel has put an alternator sitting on the prop shaft for generating electricity factory sides already. The Prop is a MaxProp that can "push" and "pull" and the setup is working pretty well under sail from around 5 knots onward. Based on that we think that the electric engine should work well on regen too, may need higher speeds though.
Yes it will work well.

I am struck by the number of negative comments. I am new here, but it seems that CF tends, more than many forums, toward the positive -- so all the naysaying is a little surprising. Presumably, the naysayers have not spent time in a Tesla nor have they read the articles in magazines such as Car and Driver that have found the Tesla to be just plain better in every respect, dollar for dollar against BMW and Mercedes. Car and Driver was strongly negative on the Tesla for a long time before realizing that their editors were mired in the past (with good reason: they are funded by their gas-guzzler advertisers).

I say go for it (!!!) and say that based on a fair amount experience with electric vehicles on and off the water. (Even my Windrocket, a tiny sailboat built just to go very fast, had an electric drive... and that drive was better in every respect than a small gas engine. The Windrocket was anything but an "electric boat", and the electric drive was only very rarely used -- but even in that boat, it was nice to have instant power at the flip of a switch, rather than having to coax a gummed up, rarely used outboard into life.

Torquedos are expensive, not because the technology is especially expensive, but because the demand is there. (The same can be said for marine LiFePo batteries -- people are willing to pay a high premium for a pre-packaged system from a supplier who appears to be sound.) Electric propulsion has numerous advantages, and if you are charging with solar, wind, or sailing regen, it is indisputably green. But virtually anyone can appreciate the quiet.

I designed and built an ultra-efficient tiny plugin-hybrid vehicle (called the Zing), a little over 10 years ago, before the Leaf and Volt came out. It used the same logic as the Volt ended up using (re range/cost/weight tradeoffs), and it has the same range on electricity, but consumes just over 1/3 the resources (in either electric or gas mode.) There is no magic there -- it's tiny, light, and streamlined -- not everyone's cup of tea.

The batteries from the Zing (LiFePo) have lasted so long that I am using them in my current project, a 31' prototype cat, with electric motors and a rigid wing sail. (It has a fall-back outboard, but that will be rarely used.) I've added some new, additional cells, and the old cells are doing about the same as the new ones, from limited testing. (I may be disappointed when I do heavier cycling... but so far my experience with LiFePo has been far better than I dreamed it would be... particularly given China's reputation for producing some very low quality products (as well as some very good quality ones.)

I drive a Volt. Faultlessly reliable, quiet, smooth, and quicker than the Civic it replaced, and substantially cheaper to operate. It has far too many gee-gaws, and poor ergonomics (by virtue of touch screens, buttons that don't give feedback, etc.) but the fundamentals are excellent: quieter than a Mercedes, but cheaper to own than a Civic. And not having to visit a gas station more than about 4 times a year is great. (And even then, my "fill-ups" are typically 5 gallons.)

In industry, where reliability and cost dictate how factories are powered, electric motors have been the norm for over a century. Even as an old motorcycle racer, car guy and pilot, I can say that electric motors are just better in every respect.

I'm (reluctantly) the GC for my new half-sized house. By virtue of its being unusually well-insulated and well-situated re the sun, I will be generating enough electricity from its solar panels to supply all of its energy needs as well as charging the Volt. Solar panels are so cheap now that it would not make economic sense for me to go any other route. The naysayers here would have a hard time convincing me that having zero carbon footprint is a bad thing... but even in pure financial self-interest, solar makes sense. My new house will cost far less than my old one. That means I can spend more time on the boat, travel more, etc, etc.

The Zing was 48 volts, but my current project is two banks at 12 volts. That is counter to conventional thinking (meaning heavier cables than for a higher voltage) but I wanted to use widely available, easily replaced 12 volt motors. The boat will sail at 15 knots, gas motor at higher than that (it has relatively high hp for its weight) but electro-motor at 3 or 4 knots. But that's just fine for dealing with a flat calm, changing sit-and-sweat conditions into a relaxing cruise. My solar panels will, without accumulating charge, power the boat endlessly -- but at even lower speed -- but crawling is better than drifting. It looks like you are expecting more from you electric motors, and that's great, I think.

Opinions: 1. I don't know of a BMS to recommend. The ones I have experience with have been frustrating. They have been fine when they work right, but finding the boards that work right consistently has been a challenge. Certainly, the systems on cars such as Volts and Leafs are quite good, and I suspect there are systems of similar quality from other suppliers --- I just have not used them. They all SOUND great.

2. Higher voltage is usually a good thing because you end up with less weight and cost in cabling. (I suspect you already know this. I know this and have gone in the opposite direction for the current (no pun intended) project, nevertheless.

3. Wrecked Leafs are a great source of large battery banks and very good associated hardware. For $3000 you can get the batteries, motor, and electronics that would otherwise cost $20,000. Volts are a possibility too, although I haven't looked for a wrecked one... you can't have mine.

4. Electric machines (motors and generators) can be, and usually are, very efficient. Automotive (and most marine) alternators are the exception, with efficiencies as low as 50%. A Leaf motor>electronics>battery path can be 90% efficient in regen. So, it would be reasonable to expect that you will do better with regen through your propulsion motor than the add-on prop shaft system produces. Continuously variable pitch on the prop would be nice.

5. Permanent magnet DC motors are very efficient, and not a great choice for a car (because they don't produce the low rpm torque of an induction motor, or even an old fork lift series wound motor), but can work really well in a boat. Brushless DC and AC motors have the advantage of less maintenance over brushed motors. Thunderstruck Motors is worth a look, if you have not already.

More support for your cause:
I converted a minivan for "Glamping." We were happy to not have a toilet in it, but we have a tiny galley with a hot pot, Cuisinart griddle, microwave, refrigerator, and heater, all powered via a battery bank with an inverter. The batteries are charged by solar panels that cover the roof. On its maiden voyage around the country 6 years ago, in a month and 6000 miles, we never had to plug in. (Since then, there have been several times when having the plug-in option has been nice: several cold grey days in a row, for instance.) The van has a conventional engine, but the "house" has an essentially zero carbon footprint.

Clearly, you're crazy to consider electric power. Next, you'll be proposing to use an electric motor in a clothes washer instead of the proven crank! Just imagine what will happen when you need to claw off a lee shore in a 100 knot wind. You'll want a 500 hp diesel.

Have fun. Great idea, well presented.
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Old 03-02-2020, 16:15   #85
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by nielstammeling View Post
Hi all,

We are already sailing for 2,5 years just electric. We started from Amsterdam, and now we are in New Zealand. 42 feet, ketch.
Which would you rather have to pull you off a lee shore, then? The electric batteries or a well maintained diesel?
If you have been through that it would a good story for you to tell here.
Have you spent any money beyond your installation, etc.?
There aren't many stories and not much first hand information that I have come across.
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Old 03-02-2020, 16:26   #86
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavron View Post
Couple comments after looking on your diagrams
1. You should have 16 cells in each bank. You can confirm this with Victron.
2. To take power from your 5 batteries (48V) bank connect negative to first battery (48V) and positive to the last battery or vice versa.

Regards

Greg
spot on
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Old 03-02-2020, 16:27   #87
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Fry View Post
Just imagine what will happen when you need to claw off a lee shore in a 100 knot wind. You'll want a 500 hp diesel.
At his point, I'll take my chances on a well maintained diesel to get me off a lee shore. There is a future for electric propulsion but it just isn't developed enough to overcome weight considerations, needing a generator to charge under way and cost.
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Old 03-02-2020, 16:36   #88
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Fry View Post
Yes it will work well.

I am struck by the number of negative comments. I am new here, but it seems that CF tends, more than many forums, toward the positive -- so all the naysaying is a little surprising. Presumably, the naysayers have not spent time in a Tesla nor have they read the articles in magazines such as Car and Driver that have found the Tesla to be just plain better in every respect, dollar for dollar against BMW and Mercedes. Car and Driver was strongly negative on the Tesla for a long time before realizing that their editors were mired in the past (with good reason: they are funded by their gas-guzzler advertisers).

I say go for it (!!!) and say that based on a fair amount experience with electric vehicles on and off the water. (Even my Windrocket, a tiny sailboat built just to go very fast, had an electric drive... and that drive was better in every respect than a small gas engine. The Windrocket was anything but an "electric boat", and the electric drive was only very rarely used -- but even in that boat, it was nice to have instant power at the flip of a switch, rather than having to coax a gummed up, rarely used outboard into life.

Torquedos are expensive, not because the technology is especially expensive, but because the demand is there. (The same can be said for marine LiFePo batteries -- people are willing to pay a high premium for a pre-packaged system from a supplier who appears to be sound.) Electric propulsion has numerous advantages, and if you are charging with solar, wind, or sailing regen, it is indisputably green. But virtually anyone can appreciate the quiet.

I designed and built an ultra-efficient tiny plugin-hybrid vehicle (called the Zing), a little over 10 years ago, before the Leaf and Volt came out. It used the same logic as the Volt ended up using (re range/cost/weight tradeoffs), and it has the same range on electricity, but consumes just over 1/3 the resources (in either electric or gas mode.) There is no magic there -- it's tiny, light, and streamlined -- not everyone's cup of tea.

The batteries from the Zing (LiFePo) have lasted so long that I am using them in my current project, a 31' prototype cat, with electric motors and a rigid wing sail. (It has a fall-back outboard, but that will be rarely used.) I've added some new, additional cells, and the old cells are doing about the same as the new ones, from limited testing. (I may be disappointed when I do heavier cycling... but so far my experience with LiFePo has been far better than I dreamed it would be... particularly given China's reputation for producing some very low quality products (as well as some very good quality ones.)

I drive a Volt. Faultlessly reliable, quiet, smooth, and quicker than the Civic it replaced, and substantially cheaper to operate. It has far too many gee-gaws, and poor ergonomics (by virtue of touch screens, buttons that don't give feedback, etc.) but the fundamentals are excellent: quieter than a Mercedes, but cheaper to own than a Civic. And not having to visit a gas station more than about 4 times a year is great. (And even then, my "fill-ups" are typically 5 gallons.)

In industry, where reliability and cost dictate how factories are powered, electric motors have been the norm for over a century. Even as an old motorcycle racer, car guy and pilot, I can say that electric motors are just better in every respect.

I'm (reluctantly) the GC for my new half-sized house. By virtue of its being unusually well-insulated and well-situated re the sun, I will be generating enough electricity from its solar panels to supply all of its energy needs as well as charging the Volt. Solar panels are so cheap now that it would not make economic sense for me to go any other route. The naysayers here would have a hard time convincing me that having zero carbon footprint is a bad thing... but even in pure financial self-interest, solar makes sense. My new house will cost far less than my old one. That means I can spend more time on the boat, travel more, etc, etc.

The Zing was 48 volts, but my current project is two banks at 12 volts. That is counter to conventional thinking (meaning heavier cables than for a higher voltage) but I wanted to use widely available, easily replaced 12 volt motors. The boat will sail at 15 knots, gas motor at higher than that (it has relatively high hp for its weight) but electro-motor at 3 or 4 knots. But that's just fine for dealing with a flat calm, changing sit-and-sweat conditions into a relaxing cruise. My solar panels will, without accumulating charge, power the boat endlessly -- but at even lower speed -- but crawling is better than drifting. It looks like you are expecting more from you electric motors, and that's great, I think.

Opinions: 1. I don't know of a BMS to recommend. The ones I have experience with have been frustrating. They have been fine when they work right, but finding the boards that work right consistently has been a challenge. Certainly, the systems on cars such as Volts and Leafs are quite good, and I suspect there are systems of similar quality from other suppliers --- I just have not used them. They all SOUND great.

2. Higher voltage is usually a good thing because you end up with less weight and cost in cabling. (I suspect you already know this. I know this and have gone in the opposite direction for the current (no pun intended) project, nevertheless.

3. Wrecked Leafs are a great source of large battery banks and very good associated hardware. For $3000 you can get the batteries, motor, and electronics that would otherwise cost $20,000. Volts are a possibility too, although I haven't looked for a wrecked one... you can't have mine.

4. Electric machines (motors and generators) can be, and usually are, very efficient. Automotive (and most marine) alternators are the exception, with efficiencies as low as 50%. A Leaf motor>electronics>battery path can be 90% efficient in regen. So, it would be reasonable to expect that you will do better with regen through your propulsion motor than the add-on prop shaft system produces. Continuously variable pitch on the prop would be nice.

5. Permanent magnet DC motors are very efficient, and not a great choice for a car (because they don't produce the low rpm torque of an induction motor, or even an old fork lift series wound motor), but can work really well in a boat. Brushless DC and AC motors have the advantage of less maintenance over brushed motors. Thunderstruck Motors is worth a look, if you have not already.

More support for your cause:
I converted a minivan for "Glamping." We were happy to not have a toilet in it, but we have a tiny galley with a hot pot, Cuisinart griddle, microwave, refrigerator, and heater, all powered via a battery bank with an inverter. The batteries are charged by solar panels that cover the roof. On its maiden voyage around the country 6 years ago, in a month and 6000 miles, we never had to plug in. (Since then, there have been several times when having the plug-in option has been nice: several cold grey days in a row, for instance.) The van has a conventional engine, but the "house" has an essentially zero carbon footprint.

Clearly, you're crazy to consider electric power. Next, you'll be proposing to use an electric motor in a clothes washer instead of the proven crank! Just imagine what will happen when you need to claw off a lee shore in a 100 knot wind. You'll want a 500 hp diesel.

Have fun. Great idea, well presented.
Maybe there are so many negative responses because this idea is not viable (yet). Perhaps someday in the future it will be but not today.

We had an expression in the IT industry: Coon skin caps attract arrows.

If this system was viable there would be product offering from bigger players. The negative comments are appropriate. If the OP and others decide to go electric it is best that they have there eyes wide open.

And, for the record I own a Tesla and love it. I also have a land based infrastructure to support it. That just does not exist for electric propulsion in the cruising world and anyone going down this path needs to understand this.
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Old 03-02-2020, 16:54   #89
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

No problem,the US Navy did away with diesel engines in submarines in the last century, just install a nuclear reactor to provide the electricity!
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Old 03-02-2020, 17:29   #90
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
BTW the correct terms are tacking up a channel and gybing down it again
I've sailed quite a bit, but I do other things as well, so I am not truly steeped in sailing. Therefore, my perception could be wrong, but at least in the US, everyone I know tacks or gybes according to the apparent wind. If the apparent wind passes over the bow, you are tacking; if it swings over the stern you are gybing.

In an iceboat, you tack even when the true wind is from the stern, provided you are keeping up speed, because the apparent wind crosses the bow. If you are not in that ice boat, you might call it a gybe, but the sailor will call it a tack, because the boat never slows enough to put the apparent wind aft. (And even from the shore, you can see, if your eyesight is good, that the sail goes over as it does in a tack -- i.e., no need to control it.)

I've sailed in rivers where this nomenclature (tacking and gybing being related to the apparent wind) is routinely used. One sails up the Hudson to go from NYC to Albany (and down to go south), but depending on the day, you might be tacking or gybing (or reaching all the way, if the weather gods are with you).

I have sailed in a few channels (but not for days at a time) and have thought that the nomenclature still applies... but it has never come up.

Are you saying that, in your neck of the woods, the direction of water flow in the channel determines the nomenclature, instead of the direction of the apparent wind?
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