Electric propulsion in the future

[Lindsaymcm]

Originally Posted by Larryo

A bit twisted, but you're listening to the wrong scientists.

Ok cool, cool - I’ll listen to the thousands of scientists who subscribe to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and you’ll listen to the few dozen scientists paid by the oil and mining lobby. All good.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The amount of carbon that a human breathes out, is exactly equal to the amount of carbon he/she takes in, minus the amount of carbon that contributes to the person's body mass. This means that the human body [like all animals] is a very modest carbon-sequestration device.

So where does the approximately 30 grams per day of carbon in urine and faeces come from?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by StuM

So where does the approximately 30 grams per day of carbon in urine and faeces come from?

Approximate organic carbon found daily, in human excreta, per person [g/ppd]:
6.6g from urine + 21.4g from feces = 30 g/ppd total c.

Mostly, from poor, brown folk.

The Characterization of Feces and Urine: A Review of the Literature to Inform Advanced Treatment Technology” ~ by C. Rose et al
“ ... Fecal wet mass values were increased by a factor of 2 in low income countries (high fiber intakes), in comparison to values found in high income countries (low fiber intakes) ... ”
➥ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4500995/

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by GordMay

You’re confused about biogenic sources of greenhouse gases - the contribution of humans to global warming.

Relax, Mara. I have good news:
Your bodily emissions have, at most, a negligible impact on climate change, and you're probably even be a modest carbon-sequestration device.

The amount of carbon that a human breathes out, is exactly equal to the amount of carbon he/she takes in, minus the amount of carbon that contributes to the person's body mass. This means that the human body [like all animals] is a very modest carbon-sequestration device.

Human beings do exhale almost three billion tons of carbon dioxide annually, but the carbon we exhale is the same carbon that was “inhaled” from the atmosphere by the plants we consume. [when we eat meat, we're still eating the same carbon, except that it passes through livestock on its way into our mouths and out into the atmosphere] Our bodies convert carbohydrates, from CO2-absorbing plants, into energy, plus water, and CO2. As such, we’re not adding any extra CO2.

The only way to add to the carbon, in the atmosphere, is to take it from a sequestered source like fossil fuels [where it has been safe from the atmosphere, for millions of years] and combust it.

Gord, I think the great circle of carbon means the Co2 we humans sequester, just like the trees, is released again when we decompose.

[Shaneesprit]

[QUOTE=seandepagnier;3551978]electric is technically more reliable by far, so not sure why you claim diesel is reliable, as opposed to what? wind power?

The justification is dead simple: There is no way to reach zero carbon future if you are allowed to use diesel for something like a sailboat that doesn't even need _any_ fuel.

Zero Carbon does not exist

The need is to completely eliminate it rather than making excuses to just "reduce" in essentially insignificant ways that are inadequate.

This is not correct, my boat could never go Electric, well never say never but there is no feasible charging solution available and I don’t believe there will be one in my lifetime, also let’s say there was a magical electrical supply in the ocean ( maybe I could dock at a wind turbine and use some wireless charging but there are none of those near me ) but that’s still not the issue. The amount of carbon released just in carrying out the modifications to my boat would far out weigh the carbon produced by its Diesel engine and gas cooking, i am not even looking for ways to reduce other than sailing more and motoring less, which is why I have a quite rightly described hybrid boat, with the main propulsion being wind, and at least when I am at the boat I am not burning timber at home to keep warm - Oh and the house is oil heated too, so by being on my Diesel engined boat with its diesel heater and gas cooker - I am reducing my carbon footprint.

Often the most carbon neutral thing to do is keep what you have already, but that’s not great for the economy.

So when something actually makes sense and I also need to make a change, I will consider it - at the moment that means, I won’t be buying batteries to replace fossil fuels anytime soon, that’s not to say I am not doing my bit, I cycle to work (when I get off the plane at least) and my boat has no AC electricity, I don’t own a generator either, and I haven’t driven my car since about August.

[Cliffhanger]

In 2011 I started my PhD looking into the viability and public perceptions of electric vehicles. Back then, most people thought that electric drive was only suitable for golf buggies and for tree-hugging hippies. "can't go fast enough", "not reliable enough", "never get enough range", "too difficult to charge". In the last decade, perceptions have been completely reversed and electric vehicles now compete with ICE vehicles in nearly every category. By 2040, the EU will have phased out fossil-fuelled cars completely. China plans to do this by 2035.

I am not predicting the transition in boats will be as fast as cars. Boats are in service much longer than cars. However the transition is inevitable. As demand for fossil fuels dries up, the cost will also go up as the economies of scale are no longer there. I think hydrogen has a role to play, especially on larger boats. Hydrogen has the big advantage that existing diesel engines can be converted to run on hydrogen. Just need different tanks and fueling infrastructure. The trouble with hydrogen is that it takes a lot of energy to produce at around 40% efficiency. This makes it expensive. There is also no environmental benefit if it is derived from fossil fuels. Green hydrogen is the answer but not yet made in large quantity. New-built boats are likely to be electric motor+hydrogen fuel cells. It is also possible (in principle) to generate hydrogen onboard using solar and seawater, but again this is only likely on big boats. Smaller sailboats (under 50ft) already work fine with batteries and will only improve as battery energy densities improve.

[pt49]

Vast majority of engines on water craft are "outboard" motor powered.

Good luck converting them to electric, hydrogen or even LPG.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by Cliffhanger

In 2011 I started my PhD looking into the viability and public perceptions of electric vehicles. Back then, most people thought that electric drive was only suitable for golf buggies and for tree-hugging hippies. "can't go fast enough", "not reliable enough", "never get enough range", "too difficult to charge". In the last decade, perceptions have been completely reversed and electric vehicles now compete with ICE vehicles in nearly every category. By 2040, the EU will have phased out fossil-fuelled cars completely. China plans to do this by 2035.

I am not predicting the transition in boats will be as fast as cars. Boats are in service much longer than cars. However the transition is inevitable. As demand for fossil fuels dries up, the cost will also go up as the economies of scale are no longer there. I think hydrogen has a role to play, especially on larger boats. Hydrogen has the big advantage that existing diesel engines can be converted to run on hydrogen. Just need different tanks and fueling infrastructure. The trouble with hydrogen is that it takes a lot of energy to produce at around 40% efficiency. This makes it expensive. There is also no environmental benefit if it is derived from fossil fuels. Green hydrogen is the answer but not yet made in large quantity. New-built boats are likely to be electric motor+hydrogen fuel cells. It is also possible (in principle) to generate hydrogen onboard using solar and seawater, but again this is only likely on big boats. Smaller sailboats (under 50ft) already work fine with batteries and will only improve as battery energy densities improve.

OK cool - please explain how my 25ft CAT can go EV? It’s far under 50ft, let’s not even include the cost, just the specs and weight.
Happy to chat about it, really interested but I am a realist, and well informed.
On a side note a spoke to a guy yesterday (works for a competitor business) who is getting rid of his EV next week due to lack of charging infrastructure, for business use, in the south of the UK, he cannot added 20% charge to his EV to get him a few more miles as there is always someone trying to get there’s to 100%

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

OK cool - please explain how my 25ft CAT can go EV? It’s far under 50ft, let’s not even include the cost, just the specs and weight.
Happy to chat about it, really interested but I am a realist, and well informed.
On a side note a spoke to a guy yesterday (works for a competitor business) who is getting rid of his EV next week due to lack of charging infrastructure, for business use, in the south of the UK, he cannot added 20% charge to his EV to get him a few more miles as there is always someone trying to get there’s to 100%

If this is a serious question, there are any number of solutions. My own boat is a 30' monohull driven by an Oceanvolt system and it does everything I need with equal ease to any diesel I have had. It is MUCH easier to put to bed for the winter and my GF does not complain about the smell.

I only have 20 nm of range if I want to/have to run on motor so I bought a Honda suitcase generator for those times I need more range than that. I strap the gennie to the floor of the cockpit and strike out.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by pt49

Vast majority of engines on water craft are "outboard" motor powered.

Good luck converting them to electric, hydrogen or even LPG.

Calor gas teamed up with Honda in Southern England a decade ago and installed LGP tanks in marinas to fuel outboards. Unfortunately they were about a decade too early and there wasn't enough uptake then. Today or in 5 years if there is a good enough price difference, who knows.

Pete

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

This is not correct, my boat could never go Electric, well never say never but there is no feasible charging solution available and I don’t believe there will be one in my lifetime,

I don't care if your boat can go electric or not, feasible or not. That isn't important, what is important is that it doesn't use diesel fuel. I don't use engines or electric and my boat is fine, been all around the world.

that’s still not the issue. The amount of carbon released just in carrying out the modifications to my boat would far out weigh the carbon produced by its Diesel engine and gas cooking, i

The carbon it takes to extract refine and transport store and compress the fuel is more than what is in the fuel. The modification I make is to carve a wooden oar. I'm not really sure how that would use more carbon. I don't think you know how to do the modifications. I am not sure why people who don't know how to do things should be making decisions.

am not even looking for ways to reduce other than sailing more and motoring less, which is why I have a quite rightly described hybrid boat, with the main propulsion being wind, and at least when I am at the boat I am not burning timber at home to keep warm - Oh and the house is oil heated too, so by being on my Diesel engined boat with its diesel heater and gas cooker - I am reducing my carbon footprint.

Basically: you consume too much energy and that is what needs to change. diesel engine boat is not a viable option not even really very useful and is rude and selfish to use one.

I don't use diesel engine boat, diesel heater, or gas cooker, so really impossible to understand why exactly you are doing this and spoiling things for everyone in the process. I dont see how it can benefit me if you continue to use diesel power but I see a lot of issues with it.

Often the most carbon neutral thing to do is keep what you have already, but that’s not great for the economy.

This is a lame excuse to do nothing. This 'boat' should not exist. Figure out how to recycle it.

I cycle to work (when I get off the plane at least) and my boat has no AC electricity, I don’t own a generator either, and I haven’t driven my car since about August.

You fly on airplanes? One flight is more emissions than what a human should produce in a year. you are way beyond the typical consumption of most of the 8 billion people. Consuming vastly more than your share all to do things you dont even need to be doing. This is exactly the type of behavior that needs to be shut down. Again proving that diesel power in cruising boats is just something over privileged people do to take advantage of those less fortunate than them by polluting the whole world for something that is essentially recreational and all it does is save them cranking a winch a few turns.

It is absurd that we are on track to waste 99% of coral reef by 2100 but this explains it: the world is full of selfish people.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by gonesail

personal use .. please define that for me. and how do you remove something from personal use? that's absurd and would be impossible to enforce. drill baby drill

The least confrontational way is to simply ban the sale of new internal combustion vehicles and let time take care of the rest. In 20 years there will be almost no internal combustion vehicles left. Rising taxes on fuel for the tiny percentage of the population using it along with closing gas stations will help accelerate the tail end.

When <1% of the vehicles on the road are internal combustion 20 or so years after you ban the sale of new vehicles well you can decide what you want to do next but you have already gained >99% of the benefit.

Now at this point that is a hell of a lot more viable for personal light duty ground vehicles than it is for other classes of vehicles (i.e. boats).

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

…


On a side note a spoke to a guy yesterday (works for a competitor business) who is getting rid of his EV next week due to lack of charging infrastructure, for business use, in the south of the UK, he cannot added 20% charge to his EV to get him a few more miles as there is always someone trying to get there’s to 100%

Huh??

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I don't care if your boat can go electric or not, feasible or not. That isn't important, what is important is that it doesn't use diesel fuel. I don't use engines or electric and my boat is fine, been all around the world.
The carbon it takes to extract refine and transport store and compress the fuel is more than what is in the fuel. The modification I make is to carve a wooden oar. I'm not really sure how that would use more carbon. I don't think you know how to do the modifications. I am not sure why people who don't know how to do things should be making decisions.


Basically: you consume too much energy and that is what needs to change. diesel engine boat is not a viable option not even really very useful and is rude and selfish to use one.

I don't use diesel engine boat, diesel heater, or gas cooker, so really impossible to understand why exactly you are doing this and spoiling things for everyone in the process. I dont see how it can benefit me if you continue to use diesel power but I see a lot of issues with it.

This is a lame excuse to do nothing. This 'boat' should not exist. Figure out how to recycle it.


You fly on airplanes? One flight is more emissions than what a human should produce in a year. you are way beyond the typical consumption of most of the 8 billion people. Consuming vastly more than your share all to do things you dont even need to be doing. This is exactly the type of behavior that needs to be shut down. Again proving that diesel power in cruising boats is just something over privileged people do to take advantage of those less fortunate than them by polluting the whole world for something that is essentially recreational and all it does is save them cranking a winch a few turns.

It is absurd that we are on track to waste 99% of coral reef by 2100 but this explains it: the world is full of selfish people.

I am not selfish at all unfortunately I do a job that assists a hell of a lot of other people to travel less, but some jobs require travel.
Also how should I recycle my boat? I assume you also wish to recycle 99.99% of the other boats out there?
Recycling that about of boats unnecessarily would be hugely damaging to the environment!
Can you explain your cranking the winch a few turns comment? and your wooden oar comment to - what use would that be?

I don’t know what boat you have but I bet the carbon footprint of your boat in the last 5 years is greater than the carbon footprint of my boat, and I would suggest it’s you that is over privileged, you have released more carbon buying all those batteries and presumably upgrading your boat producing yet more carbon,
I on the other hand am running on recycled fuel, and boat modifications that I am very capable of have released very little carbon as I said before, refitting before end of life is a carbon negative, I do not even own an outboard, as I prefer to row - if you take launch and maintenance time into the travel time, rowing will beat an outboard any day.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Huh??

The EV chargers have 2 cables but can only charge one car at a time, so if someone is trying to do a full charge but you just need to do a pit stop you plug in, and the charger ignores your car until the other is at 100%
The way around this is to hit the stop 🛑 button disconnecting the other car before connecting yours, reset the charger and then plug the other car back in so it ignores the other car and charges yours Although would you do this to if the owner is sat in his / her car.