DIY parallel hybrid - anyone done it?

[Adams44]

I'm doing it, as per you schematic diagram. See my build thread: https://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=60738

Where the pulley is located on the main shaft, there must be no vibration from the diesel engine. To achieve this I've positioned it just aft of an AquaDrive thrust bearing assembly, which fixes the pulley in 3D. The trick is eliminate a single continuous shaft connecting the diesel to the prop.

[Wayne88]

Originally Posted by tmason

Come to think better of it, as Q Xopa mentioned, the engine is wobbling around so the pillow block, yes, that is one in the picture, will probably hold the shaft too rigidly and cause other problems - keep experimenting - Luddites would have us all living in mud huts!

One can rigid mount the shaft and then make use of a flexible coupling between it and the gearbox output. Probably healthier for the stuffing box etc.

[nwdiver]

Check out these guys, they can supply the system you are looking for......

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by nwdiver

Check out these guys, they can supply the system you are looking for......

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

Thanks,

Actually they were listed in the first post. Also they aren't 'DIY' as in the first bit of the title of this thread. As you say they sell the complete system if you give them a big chunk of cash. Some of us are looking to source the individual components and put it together ourselves.

But Thanks anyway.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by lordgeoff

Sorry. Cant help myself.
Why?
It won't work.

Ah humor, (I think that was the attempt?)

If not you might be better directing your revelations to- info@hybridmarine.co.uk , or their customers, to let them know there's no reason anyone should do it and it wont work. They may, or may not, be relieved to learn from your knowledge.

[bluenomads]

Thanks everyone. Great ideas for the pillow block.
One of the hopes is to minimise changes if possible to existing systems, so that others also find adding something similar relatively easy, so I’d like to not change the shaft (split) or much else that takes a yard or haulout. Adding a wheel to the shaft for a pulley or chain is preferably the only modification. Adding brackets to the hull sides etc is fair game .

It doesn’t look like we need the second reduction drive. If the shaft can’t come out (no haulout!), then the shaft sprocket or wheel needs to attach to the shaft via friction (hmmm, doubtful), or locked against a tab welded to the shaft. Either way, no thrust bearing should be needed as the chain/belt will be ok with the minor movement. A chain would work best as the tension doesn’t matter as much, but a toother belt may be ok as well?

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

Thanks everyone. Great ideas for the pillow block.
One of the hopes is to minimise changes if possible to existing systems, so that others also find adding something similar relatively easy, so I’d like to not change the shaft (split) or much else that takes a yard or haulout. Adding a wheel to the shaft for a pulley or chain is preferably the only modification. Adding brackets to the hull sides etc is fair game .

It doesn’t look like we need the second reduction drive. If the shaft can’t come out (no haulout!), then the shaft sprocket or wheel needs to attach to the shaft via friction (hmmm, doubtful), or locked against a tab welded to the shaft. Either way, no thrust bearing should be needed as the chain/belt will be ok with the minor movement. A chain would work best as the tension doesn’t matter as much, but a toother belt may be ok as well?

The Hybrid Marine drive/ reduction and tensioner setup is all attached to the back of the engine. I see this as the best way to do this.

However this means that either-
1 you move your engine forward, or
2 move your propshaft back or shorten it.

to allow for the extra space of the reduction and drive.

If you have space in front of your engine that is doable in the water.
Less so option 2, but maybe cutting the prop shaft. Although I have seen some creative, and perhaps brave boaties take propshafts out ing the water. Basically really quickly and having someone in the water with a bung ready to put back in the hole. I dont think I will try it. Could end easily with everybody wet.

Having said the above, my preference would be doing it out of the water if posssible. This doesnt really come under the category of just quickly sneak it onto the engine.

You are talking about not using an extra shaft coupling and keying it directly onto the shaft. Assuming you have enough exposed propshaft. It is actually also commonly done this way with 'grub screws' to bite onto the shaft. Or more for this amount of power using a keyway, usually cut into the shaft using a mill, and woodruff key.

You could actually do a Pillow bearing this way too, and have the bearing mounted via a fabricated bracket onto the engine/ Txn housing.

All possible, but bound to be a fair bit of messing around so would be easier to out of the water IMNSHO.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Love it...you aren't allowed to ask about design parameters (ie: why you are doing this) but tell me it will work and how to do it.

I'm up for some mischief, I'll bite. Seeing you're keen on opinions of why someone would do this.

I'm sure many will give me the benefit of their knowledge to tell me how misguided I am, but my thoughts-

Most people will do this as a means of propulsion to save some diesel to-

• save running costs/
• be green/
• increase range/
• reduce having to visit the fuel dock.

(pick which one or combination of).

My thinking is hmmm, maybe. This is the bottom of my list.

The attractive thing to me is the ability to generate power. Potentially big power, so LFP batts could be filled quickly. Like the one described in a popular and emotional "Triskel power generation system" thread recently. Ie in lieu of a separate stand alone generator.

Obviously this is dependent on having a big enough LFP bank to suck up that much power at that rate.

This would also ideally have a prop disconnect (clutch) so you could generate power at anchor without the prop spinning and wasting diesel charging energy.

The next perceived benefit, in order of relevance I can see is as a propulsion system back up. Ie engine stopping from bad fuel etc. It might make enough of a difference to my ass..ets? I'd rather have it up my sleeve than not. I'm all for redundancy and being a mono this is more relevant than Cat owners.

My last reasons are what most people consider their main reasons, ie saving diesel. This is a maybe, possible bonus if it happens. I'm not counting on it.

I of course realize that the economics of this is hard to justify. Probably applicable generally to boats in general.

I look forward to everyone offering me the benefit of their wisdom why this is such a stupid idea.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Thanks,

Actually they were listed in the first post. Also they aren't 'DIY' as in the first bit of the title of this thread. As you say they sell the complete system if you give them a big chunk of cash. Some of us are looking to source the individual components and put it together ourselves.

But Thanks anyway.

Sorry didn't see that link, but a friend bought the motor and control system and installed it in his powerboat to use as a generator and short distance motor......its in a 45ft boat with a Lugger 125hp engine, so they do sell the parts.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by nwdiver

Sorry didn't see that link, but a friend bought the motor and control system and installed it in his powerboat to use as a generator and short distance motor......its in a 45ft boat with a Lugger 125hp engine, so they do sell the parts.

When I asked them not so long ago, they told me they used to but only sell complete systems now.

[Shaunskie]

Q Xopa,

Good morning, please see notes below and yes we are all on the same lines I will try to be a little clearer,

Can you explain what you are calling a 'plumber block' please? I'm not familiar with that term. I think you are talking about what I call a 'pillow block bearing support'. Absolutely correct, ( explanation for wrong terminology is I am a muddle head sometimes.) Jacking bolts however we are slightly off, the two holes in the two holes in the pillow base can be used for shimming and lateral adjustment, however much finer adjustment can be achieved by using Jacking bolts on the base in order to achieve more precise alignment. The radial forces mentioned earlier would indeed be an issue but certainly not insurmountable depending on how far you wish to go and how much the initial problem actually is. Tmason also mentions them, i think we are all talking about the same thing?

'Jacking bolts' again, not quite sure of your terminology but I think you are talking about the bolts that secure the shaft bearing 'pillow block' support housing to the hull (or some other convenient support structure). Re dog clutch, sorry I don't think I can assist there but I will definitely have a look as it is an exiting project.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

I'm up for some mischief, I'll bite. Seeing you're keen on opinions of why someone would do this.

I'm sure many will give me the benefit of their knowledge to tell me how misguided I am, but my thoughts-

Most people will do this as a means of propulsion to save some diesel to-

• save running costs/
• be green/
• increase range/
• reduce having to visit the fuel dock.

(pick which one or combination of).

My thinking is hmmm, maybe. This is the bottom of my list.

The attractive thing to me is the ability to generate power. Potentially big power, so LFP batts could be filled quickly. Like the one described in a popular and emotional "Triskel power generation system" thread recently. Ie in lieu of a separate stand alone generator.

Obviously this is dependent on having a big enough LFP bank to suck up that much power at that rate.

This would also ideally have a prop disconnect (clutch) so you could generate power at anchor without the prop spinning and wasting diesel charging energy.

The next perceived benefit, in order of relevance I can see is as a propulsion system back up. Ie engine stopping from bad fuel etc. It might make enough of a difference to my ass..ets? I'd rather have it up my sleeve than not. I'm all for redundancy and being a mono this is more relevant than Cat owners.

My last reasons are what most people consider their main reasons, ie saving diesel. This is a maybe, possible bonus if it happens. I'm not counting on it.

I of course realize that the economics of this is hard to justify. Probably applicable generally to boats in general.

I look forward to everyone offering me the benefit of their wisdom why this is such a stupid idea.

Yes for stand alone gen mode You need a coupling to disengage the prop shaft..... You might be interested in an electric clutch with controller

https://www.warnerelectric.com/products/clutch-products

https://www.warnerelectric.com/produ...primary-clutch

light weight 12 V clutch
https://www.altramotion.com/newsroom...rathon-vehicle

They say it´s cheap....whatever that means

But light weight electric actuated 12 Volt sounds good....set up with the pully of the motor/generator

Yeah, the "Triskel power generation system".... 10 MIO investment in R&D
Sounds like this will cost a lot of $$$$ same as generator. That is relative. In the end it´s an alternator and a black box. They say they can trouble shoot online
What a petty..... in case of a new boat I am all electric propulsion and the gen set in a convenient location

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

I already have two 135hp diesels on our cat.
I want to put in a parallel hybrid on one side, but all the existing systems (like hybridmarine) supply the matched diesel whereas I want to use our existing one.
[B]Has anyone done this before to a mid-size inboard diesel?


At the moment I'm thinking of playing with the thunderstruck motor, sevcon 48 controller and reduction gearbox. But I'm a bit stuck on the best way to attach a chain or tensioned belt to the 1.5" shaft - any ideas?

No I have not done this but I think Hybrid Marine has a good design and I would stay with the basic concept. I asume You watched their videos and are familar with the challenge of the mechanical components.

1 - allowing continuing diesel power, or electric-only power, to the same drive shaft.
Let´s make a difference between drive shaft and the prop shaft for better understanding

2 - it wouldn't be possible to insert a drive belt from the electric in between the motor and gearbox to reuse the gearbox.
Why would You wanna do that ? You wanna disconnect the diesel engine from the drive shaft when running electric by shifting the transmission in neutral.

3 - But that means I can't use a reduction gearbox from the electric on-shaft either as then I'd have double reduction for the diesel.
Don´t know what You mean... You take off the power after the transmission before the coupling with the prop shaft

4 - ability to run a tensioned belt or chain to the existing shaft.
5 - Many of the controllers permit "regen" from the controller, so I shouldn't need a clutch on the shaft to decouple the electric when the diesel is running.
Well Yes, I agree, some controllers have this feature but at this point Q Xopa mad a very important observation. You should also be able to disconnect Your prop shaft from the drive shaft
a) the You can use it as a generator only
b) You will be able to stop charging when batteries are full which is a real challenge with Lithium batteries

6 - But I'm a bit stuck on the best way to attach a chain or tensioned belt to the 1.5" shaft - any ideas?

As You can observe Hybrid Marine has the drive wheel for the motor/generator directly mounted to the transmission shaft while all the other components of the drive are also mounted to the transmission and engine....NO wobbling and additional vibrations to the prop shaft.
Then there is a short piece of shaft that connects with the drive shaft of the transmission on one side and on the other side the coupling to the prop shaft.
I think till here it´s perfect
But then comes as pointed out by Q Xopa the problem of the added length that can only be handeled by cutting the Prop shaft( Haul Out) or moving the engine further back.....
Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

So let´s find a way to eliminate that little extra added piece of shaft and couple the prop shaft directly to the flanch that is bolted through the timing belt wheel to the drive shaft of the transmission. That means besides Your bolts that go to the transmission there have to be also some bolts on the backside of the timing belt wheel that allow You to connect Your prop shaft coupling and to align it properly.

Best advice I can give You is talk to Timing Belts & Timing Belt Pulleys | Pfeifer Industries

and in particular design of custom pullies / timing drive wheels
Online Product Catalog – Timing Belt Pulleys – Bar Stock | Pfeifer Industries
Online Catalog – Timing Belt Pulley Guide Flanges | Pfeifer Industries
Yes they have bar stock in all kinds of sizes that can be drilled and machined to Your Spec.
Have a look... for You case I like the last one > TWO PIECE TIMING BELT PULLY
Can You see how the inside is machined hollow while this has nothing to do with the width of the belt..... Yeah You might get away and can use the alignment tolerances of the engine mounts and the prop shaft. However be careful, You don´t want this to be fragile!!!!!
Timing Belt Pulley Design Features | Pfeifer Industries

IMPORTANT !!!
Read this to get better understanding about design !!!! AND BELTS !!!!!...... and chosing the right gear sizes for surface area of belts
https://www.altramotion.com/newsroom...-drive-systems

I like this belt type for Your application but there might be a better ones
Online Product Catalog – Polyurethane Timing Belts | Pfeifer Industries
SynchroChain Timing Belt | Urethane Timing Belts | Pfeifer Industries

BTW: for motor /generator I believe Hybrid Marine is using........
https://lynchmotors.co.uk/pdfs/lmc-lem-200.pdf
but there are also others......
AGNI MOTOR... Have not checked lately but have seen them on AMAZON before. The new version based on Lynch looks great Saietta Group - Electric Drive Solutions for Automotive

PERM motor PMG 132
https://www.heinzmann.com/en/electri...ncake/dc-motor
Yes, those pancake motors are great. However the older ones have a low IP rating and that is not so good for marine environment

You can also look here for other types of motors
Motenergy Brush-Type DC Motors 3-20 HP

OK, You said the rest of the system is not of concern
Hope that gets You in the right direction
Cheers

[gmakhs]

It wouldn't be easier and simplier if you just add 1 or 2 electric outboards to do the job ???
I am pretty sure you can locate them either on the back of the hulls or the inner side of them or in the middle of the boat .
You can even add only a waterproof electric motor under the hull like the bigger ships have .simpler than messing with belts and pullays

[Q Xopa]

Yes, very nice stuff Pfeifer Industries do.

Do you know if they have disconnect clutches? I could see mention of clutch flanges but no other info.

Yes their drive hubs look nice too. My only comments about them is that they are aluminium. Maybe corrodes too easily? Maybe they can do other materials? Also the better looking ones still use a Woodruff key so would still need the slot milled into your shaft, so still would be easier done hauled out. Almost anything is possible though.

Also most of the motors referenced are DC brushed types. I think the EP industry has largely moved onto Brushless AC motors.

I heard the Parallel hybrid road is getting well trod. I'm not sure I would go that far. Parallel seems to be rarely considered and not well known about. That's fine by me.

The Series Hybrid EP crowd seems to be the popular flavor of the month at the moment judging by the threads and participation. It's great to see some tinkering and discussion about EP in general. Although IMNSHO it's still a little way off being viable and practical, but its headed in the right direction.

I see Parallel systems as like Series systems still not very viable and practical either.

However if it is considered more as a Triskel/ Intergrel generator replacement style concept it IMNSHO gets more interesting. Then the EP aspects become of a 'bonus' rather than of questionable viability.