DIY parallel hybrid - anyone done it?

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

It wouldn't be easier and simplier if you just add 1 or 2 electric outboards to do the job ???
I am pretty sure you can locate them either on the back of the hulls or the inner side of them or in the middle of the boat .
You can even add only a waterproof electric motor under the hull like the bigger ships have .simpler than messing with belts and pullays

Good idea, does sound easier and simpler.

One quick question if I may, how are you suggesting to power the Electric outboards- big battery bank or separate generator? If big batteries, what was your thoughts on charging them back up?

Batteries, and especially getting them charged is where things usually seem to start getting a bit more complicated.

[gmakhs]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Good idea, does sound easier and simpler.

One quick question if I may, how are you suggesting to power the Electric outboards- big battery bank or separate generator? If big batteries, what was your thoughts on charging them back up?

Batteries, and especially getting them charged is where things usually seem to start getting a bit more complicated.

It depends , if I had to run the gen anyway I would use 220 or 110 v AC motors powered directly from the gen like big ships industry does.(higher voltage ofcourse )

Now if your plan is to stop using diesel , and save yourself from the annoying sound of the generator and engine .
You can make a system for short mileage that will be able to recharge your main batteries (or motor dedicated batteries ) from.wind , sun and by breaking the motors during sailing .

The generator can be used to top up the batteries but not as effectively as with the 220 option.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

It depends , if I had to run the gen anyway I would use 220 or 110 v AC motors powered directly from the gen like big ships industry does.(higher voltage ofcourse )

Now if your plan is to stop using diesel , and save yourself from the annoying sound of the generator and engine .
You can make a system for short mileage that will be able to recharge your main batteries (or motor dedicated batteries ) from.wind , sun and by breaking the motors during sailing .

The generator can be used to top up the batteries but not as effectively as with the 220 option.

Parallel Hybrid, as in the title of this thread, is using a diesel and an electric motor. So I dont think anyone was talking about to stop using diesel.

Using a generator is basically referred to as a 'Series' Hybrid. There are a number of current threads going where this concept is being discussed and debated. Like 'Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor' , 'Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?', 'Electric dink options for your Catamaran' and I'm sure a number of others.

But I agree that things could be so much simpler without needing to mess around with pesky pullies and drive belts or chains.

[gmakhs]

I am sorry , Probably I got it wrong

I don't see any point to use both at the same time .

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

It wouldn't be easier and simplier if you just add 1 or 2 electric outboards to do the job ???
I am pretty sure you can locate them either on the back of the hulls or the inner side of them or in the middle of the boat .
You can even add only a waterproof electric motor under the hull like the bigger ships have .simpler than messing with belts and pullays

EV and more popularly EV Diesel Hybrids come in 2 configuration varieties.

Namely 'Series' and 'Parallel'.

Most people think Series, when they are talking about Hybrids. There are many benefits to this configuration, like not needing to mess with belts and pullies. But of course like everything there are also some downsides.

Series by definition means that if any one of the two or more inputs stop the system output stops.

Parallel can have one of the input elements stop and the system will continue to function. So maybe this is worth messing around with belts and pullies. This is an individual choice.

The other benefit of a Parallel Hybrid installation that it is a bloody big high output alternator installation but potentially without lots of the issues associated with trying to do bigger alternator installs. Ie overheating and Belt drive systems are already built robust enough etc.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Yes, very nice stuff Pfeifer Industries do.

Do you know if they have disconnect clutches? I could see mention of clutch flanges but no other info.

Yes their drive hubs look nice too. My only comments about them is that they are aluminium. Maybe corrodes too easily? Maybe they can do other materials? Also the better looking ones still use a Woodruff key so would still need the slot milled into your shaft, so still would be easier done hauled out. Almost anything is possible though.

Also most of the motors referenced are DC brushed types. I think the EP industry has largely moved onto Brushless AC motors.

I heard the Parallel hybrid road is getting well trod. I'm not sure I would go that far. Parallel seems to be rarely considered and not well known about. That's fine by me.

The Series Hybrid EP crowd seems to be the popular flavor of the month at the moment judging by the threads and participation. It's great to see some tinkering and discussion about EP in general. Although IMNSHO it's still a little way off being viable and practical, but its headed in the right direction.

I see Parallel systems as like Series systems still not very viable and practical either.

However if it is considered more as a Triskel/ Intergrel generator replacement style concept it IMNSHO gets more interesting. Then the EP aspects become of a 'bonus' rather than of questionable viability.

Yes, Pfeifer Ind is in my library for some time. All started out with the alternator gurus trying to sell me on a 6 - 10 grove pully system for 5-700 $ and what I need is design freedom to adapt to higher loads for a reasonable price.

* Yes the aluminium is an issue. That comes from the EV world where everything is designed to save weight. However if You understood how they built the pulleys then it´s a minor problem. If You can mill the teeth in a round bar of forged alu, then You can also do it in any round bar if You have the right cutting tools. No, I never felt the urge to talk to them to challenge their tech capabilities. I don´t know if they machine the round bars themselfs or if they subcontract. However at this stage of thoughts it would not surprise me if they already also have some advanced nonmetal solutions in in the black box.

* Well, the Haul Out topic. Actually I was more thinking about trying to use the already existing coupling between drive and prop shaft by squeezing just a disk in between to keep it DIY $$$$ simple. Of course if the boat is on the hard that takes out a lot of heat. But now imagine it would take just "ONE COMPONENT" that could be easy fit to any standard coupling and NO need of further complications ? Then the only issue would be designing a proper frame for the motor/generator. Any $$$ DECENT machine shop $$$ can screw and weld some plates and bars/angle irons to spec.

Now the headline was DIY parallel hybrid
Of course the mentioned ideas are no subject for the DROP IN warranty defenders but I would say for a person with fair skills that many live aboards have aquiered by needs with time and that have the balls to think a little out of the box this is pure logic. However I would recommend to take the EXPERTS!!! like a company caliper Pfeifer on board to secure the critical technical details. I guess when You digest their web page You gotta realize that their are quiete a few things to consider and it´s not just hammering and screwing ..... guess it´s clear what I mean, RIGHT ?
Of course I am sure their are more companies like that. Right now I am just busy with other things and have no time for digging.

* DISCONNECT CLUTCHES.... well, also not on my priority list right now but I estimate that also as a minor issue. If You understand there are electric actuated clutches then their is a solution. I personally prefer the magnetic coupling like used in the automotive ind. on AC compressors with one reservation. I don´t think it´s good for the longevity of the components that for example in the case of the diesel engine warming up with out load all over sudden a high load like a 10 kW generator kicks in. Not that this is only a high stress on the drive system. It would also need some serious beefing up on the frame for the drive and that is more weight and $$$$. So that would requiere some kind of a controlled slip ring etc. solution. (Clutch Controller)
No I have never talked to them but I am convinced that when I call an expert in the tech department of a company like https://www.warnerelectric.com/products/clutch-products I will have the right solution with all options in less then 20 minutes. Of course always if I can keep up with the guy´s expert language to be on the same page. After all those guys are wizzards because they have lived in the world of clutch science all their live. They know all the bells and
Hahaha, now I hope You are a nice guy and will not try to be a smart ass. Then I am sure such a wizzard is motivated to show You all his expert talents and he will take You to the promised land, ...... Hahaha,Right ?
Of course if You go to the marine mafia they only wanna talk about black $$$ boxes and sell You complete systems.

*Also most of the motors referenced are DC brushed types. I think the EP industry has largely moved on to Brushless AC motors.
Well, this is a real topic for me and I am trying to keep a clear head. First of all with an EV You have more options. Soon there will be a plug everywhere and the guys eager to sell us the juice. For them it´s cheaper to transport high volts and for us it´s faster to charge. Yes I agree there are some performance debates towards AC motors but for me on a boat navigating large distances with out a way to plug in things change dramatically. Of course making big waves close to the beach for a few hours or getting out of the harbor is not the same then the situation of NO wind or trying to escape from a frightening weather condition.

So what I need is a constant EP that is close to hull speed and not the BS that my batteries will last all day long at 2 knots

So first I start my system with the batteries and how I charge them. Next step is Free renewable energy. This tech all happens in DC and what I can´t get for free I have to supply with a dirty fossil fuel Diesel gen that is still the most efficient form of energy.
And I don´t believe that will change any time soon !!!
Parting from available space and options of renewable capacity I think it´s fair to state that this might be enough for comfortable permanent on board living but it´s definitely not enough for extended motoring at "close to hull speed" with out a Diesel gen.
Now there is always a loss when You convert from DC to AC, specially shading when trying higher voltage with solar panels connected in series. On the charging side You always have the control issues of frequency when choosing an AC gen while I can totally avoid all those issues when I have a large battery bank that I wanna have anyway to take full advantage of all the renewable options. Yes, comercial marine runs high voltage AC but they also don´t try to take advantage of renewables. With the tech of today till now I come to the conclusion that for the recreative marine ind. running all DC on the charging side is more practical, less sensitive to marine environment components and cheaper as an over all integration with the DC standard installations on the boat. Remains the integration of the propulsion that gets more complicated. As there are trade offs a 48 Volt DC motor for propulsion out performs from the point of "MY"view of intigration, simplicity, safety and $$$ specially DIY. For insurance purposes You also need a certified $$$$ installation if You go standard AC voltage and those guys might not be around when something goes wrong. Remains the issues of integrating the DC 48 Volt propulsion with a standard 12 Volt installation. Well, on the DC motor side there is not much to control. In theory You can run down the battery till the recommended DOD. On the other side You need stable 12 Volt to run sensitive electronics and the inverter will cut of between 10 - 11 Volts. Best ideas I have on the subject till now is step down transformers, maybe several of them for different circuits.... or just a second bank of batteries with a charger.
Well of course... and the DC gen always on automatic to keep the batteries in a good mood. Today there are Lithium batteries that garanty 10.000 cycles in heavy fast charge and discharge EV application. I thing it´s fair to think that in our boats we will not even be able to tickle them with our loads.
10.000 heavy cycles = 3 cycles per day for 27 years. Yeah, things are getting interesting.

* I heard the Parallel hybrid road is getting well trod. I'm not sure I would go that far. Parallel seems to be rarely considered and not well known about. That's fine by me.
Well, here I definitely disagree.
The Parallel hybrid drive is a game changer.
First of all on the SAFETY side. Now boats with a single engine have a BACK UP propulsion if the engine fails. The renewables might not be up for constant hull speed but they are always good to capture some emergency Amps for the electric motor.

* I absolutely agree with the DIY head line and purpose of this thread. Makes NO SENSE to throw out my perfectly well engine that I know all the querks, have all the spare parts and tools just because the marine mafia doesn´t find it convenient or profitable to give us a $$$ decent solution $$$

* Boats designed with Diesel propulsion need a reliable charging source with capacity to get more comfort on board.

* Most of the time it´s a hassle to find a good location for a gen on board

* Efficiency...not all have a money printing machine on board and for others it might be just a pure question of operating costs.

I believe the Parallel Hybrid is a very good option unless You buy a new boat.

* The Series Hybrid EP crowd seems to be the popular flavor of the month at the moment judging by the threads and participation
Hahaha, trends in the news

* However if it is considered more as a Triskel/ Intergrel generator replacement style concept it IMNSHO gets more interesting. Then the EP aspects become of a 'bonus' rather than of questionable viability.
I believe DIY is great and a lot cheaper but always if You have the skills to know what You are doing and having the quality suppliers for the components is key for design freedom.

* But I agree that things could be so much simpler without needing to mess around with pesky pullies and drive belts or chains.

* Parallel can have one of the input elements stop and the system will continue to function. So maybe this is worth messing around with belts and pullies. This is an individual choice.
Here You go. Yes on a single engine it´s worth while
>>>> Ie engine stopping from bad fuel etc. It might make enough of a difference to my ass..ets? I'd rather have it up my sleeve than not. I'm all for redundancy and being a mono this is more relevant than Cat owners.

Sorry, of course You did not forget. My fault keeping up with the pace.

The other benefit of a Parallel Hybrid installation that it is a bloody big high output alternator installation but potentially without lots of the issues associated with trying to do bigger alternator installs. Ie overheating and Belt drive systems are already built robust enough etc.
Yes, serious Amps with more or less off the shelf components... only a question of digging and getting the right mix

* Electric Outboard motors
Well, till now I see almost only converted gasoline outboards no matter what´s the name of the brand. What a waste of efficiency with all the gears and $$$$ with the El CHEAPO solutions
Then there is the Torqueedo like mafia pushing to hook You up with the integrated controllers and systems and fancy black box design for the price of gold.....and ¿?¿ "geard" brushless DC motors ??? Mmmmmm
And then there are the real POD drives like Fischer Panda, also DC..... unfortunately also way out of range for many to justify the investment.

What I like about the outboard and pod drive idea is the fact that the thrust is directed most efficient and not in an angle like a shaft drive that some times is more then 10º angle due to design issues with the size of the combustion engine. They are very robust in case of the Pod drive and very service friendly in case of the outboard.

* One quick question if I may, how are you suggesting to power the Electric outboards- big battery bank or separate generator? If big batteries, what was your thoughts on charging them back up?
Batteries, and especially getting them charged is where things usually seem to start getting a bit more complicated.
Hahaha Yeah, Well, Mmmm, You gotta start some where, Right ?
That´s why I start the design of my system with the battery bank and the charging sources.
It´s not like money))) You can´t spend more energy then You produce


* gmakhs
The generator can be used to top up the batteries but not as effectively as with the 220 option.
And what is the situation if there is no 220 option ?
Efficiency is relative and most likely a question of trade offs. The comparison with comercial marine industrie is not valid.... not only because of the uses related with the renewables. When You change size You also change parameters.
For example: on a big freighter size and weight is no design issue. You also have industrial quality permanent maintenance.
With a DC gen You have variable RPM speed control to use the gen capacity. That is more fuel efficient. Less fuel = less space for tanks or greater operating range.

Always open to new ideas

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

I already have two 135hp diesels on our cat.
I want to put in a parallel hybrid on one side, but all the existing systems (like hybridmarine) supply the matched diesel whereas I want to use our existing one.
Has anyone done this before to a mid-size inboard diesel?
Please note, if you ask "why", I'll just ignore you: the reasons don't matter, I'm only after whether anyone has done it, or has ideas on how to do it better/well.
I don't need asking why do I want to or told why it won't work. Thank you .

By parallel hybrid, I mean an electric motor next to/above the drive shaft allowing continuing diesel power, or electric-only power, to the same drive shaft.
Now the reduction gearbox on the existing diesel is mated directly to the motor (2:1), and (I assume but haven't checked) a thrust bearing. So it wouldn't be possible to insert a drive belt from the electric to in between the motor and gearbox to reuse the gearbox. But that means I can't use a reduction gearbox from the electric on-shaft either as then I'd have double reduction for the diesel.

So I'd need motor + controller + gearbox (2:1 reduction) + ability to run a tensioned belt or chain to the existing shaft. Oh, and of course the other parts of the system I'll ignore for now (batteries, throttle, etc.). Many of the controllers permit "regen" from the controller, so I shouldn't need a clutch on the shaft to decouple the electric when the diesel is running. Existing shaft speed is 500-1200rpm.

At the moment I'm thinking of playing with the thunderstruck motor, sevcon 48 controller and reduction gearbox. But I'm a bit stuck on the best way to attach a chain or tensioned belt to the 1.5" shaft - any ideas?

Yes i have it on my 62ft cat, but it's not a DY Instaĺation..

[Tibor- Puma 38]

Hello, I planned out mine, sourced the parts, made the controller, the wiring - now start to config the controller setting and test the torque, rpm, current, etc. SO, how it goes - in my case. Our boat is equipped with a 3-cylynder 40 hp yanmar. The Yanmar and the gearbox weights 500 pounds, but - when the engine was new - churned out max 210 NM torque after the gearbox - so this is the value i want to reach. THe propshaft RPM is max. 1200 (we never run the diesel over 2.600 RPM). I decided to use only watercooled parts. There is a watercooled traction motor (3-phase AC), a watercooled controller, and a watercooled 12 kw diesel motor coupled with a watercooled alternator. All parts - including the water pump, main contactor - are automotive grade which I marinize (to prevent galvanic corrosion). I am building my own battery pack from 18650 cells from used laptop batteries - like many DIYers. I calculate that - in case of average calm conditions it will provide me 2-3 hour electric drive, than the genset starts automatically and charges up the batteries within 3 hours, than again 2-3 hours electric drive..etc. In case of emergency (all electronic drivetrain dies), I can connect the generator diesel motor to the propshaft by a pulley and a belt. This whole system not only gives me more quiet and economic drive, but I can also get rid of the 45 gallon diesel tank which blocks my access to the rudder - you all know how dangeorus is, I guess. What I found is that you can find all electric and hybrid car parts for peanuts in the jankyard - they are well engineered, effective motors and controllers - only you need to find the way to overcome the can signals for the controller. My controller can take 160 kw(!) I paid 400 usd for it. THe traction motor is max. 80 kw - I paid 300 usd for it.

[saghost]

If I was confident l could get the programming sorted out and assuming the rpm bands matched up decently, I think the way I'd be tempted to do this is the pull the transmission entirely and replace it with a Honda Accord Hybrid transmission from a salvage car.

That gives you pure electric direct drive in forward and reverse when you want it, engine as a big generator any time you want - and if the clutch is engaged, direct diesel drive for efficient cruising with or without electric assist or generation as desired, in one complete and well engineered package.

[Tibor- Puma 38]

Originally Posted by saghost

If I was confident l could get the programming sorted out and assuming the rpm bands matched up decently, I think the way I'd be tempted to do this is the pull the transmission entirely and replace it with a Honda Accord Hybrid transmission from a salvage car.

That gives you pure electric direct drive in forward and reverse when you want it, engine as a big generator any time you want - and if the clutch is engaged, direct diesel drive for efficient cruising with or without electric assist or generation as desired, in one complete and well engineered package.

Thanx. I know that most DIY electric cars connect the electric motor to the gearbox - but for the boat I don`t like the idea. the direction switch will be done electronically through the motor controller/inverter. There will be a fix gear ratio which i set with a simple pulley-belt drive. This way the whole setup is way quieter, simplier - in my opinion. As for the genset: it needs to be light - a small watercooled diesel without the water pump, radiator, starter motor, balance wheel but coupled to a decent alternator.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by Tibor- Puma 38

Thanx. I know that most DIY electric cars connect the electric motor to the gearbox - but for the boat I don`t like the idea. the direction switch will be done electronically through the motor controller/inverter. There will be a fix gear ratio which i set with a simple pulley-belt drive. This way the whole setup is way quieter, simplier - in my opinion. As for the genset: it needs to be light - a small watercooled diesel without the water pump, radiator, starter motor, balance wheel but coupled to a decent alternator.

Genset? Are you talking about a 'Serial' hybrid?

[saghost]

Originally Posted by Tibor- Puma 38

Thanx. I know that most DIY electric cars connect the electric motor to the gearbox - but for the boat I don`t like the idea. the direction switch will be done electronically through the motor controller/inverter. There will be a fix gear ratio which i set with a simple pulley-belt drive. This way the whole setup is way quieter, simplier - in my opinion. As for the genset: it needs to be light - a small watercooled diesel without the water pump, radiator, starter motor, balance wheel but coupled to a decent alternator.

Whatever makes you happy. I do feel like I failed to fully get the concept across based on your later comments, though.

Your current diesel engine has a transmission between it and the shaft, right? That's how the diesel shifts into forward and reverse in most systems I've seen. That's the transmission I was proposing to pull out.

The HAH transaxle already does exactly what you're saying - the larger electric motor is always connected directly to the output shaft, and switched into forward and reverse by inverter phase timing. The smaller electric motor is always connected to the input shaft, used as a generator and starter.

In between, there's a clutch that can lock the two together so the engine can drive the shaft directly when desired (at a single gear ratio forward only.) Electric drive, generator, series hybrid, and parallel hybrid in one compact reliable box.

In this case it's somewhat more powerful (and therefore heavier/more expensive) than would really be ideal for the case, but that's the hardware that's available. I'm not sure how much of a nightmare sorting the firmware out would be, though.

[Tibor- Puma 38]

Thank you, saghost for the info. Yes, the HAH transaxle transmission would may also be a good option - but I rather choose the headache of creating stg on my own which is cheaper and lighter 9I started it up as a DIY project). In my case there will be a traction motor which is connected only to the propshaft with a fix gear-ration belt+pulley. Mechanically independent from the traction motor will be the diesel engine+alternator which provides high DC voltage+current to the battery. Only in case of emergency, I will have the possibility to attach the diesel motor to the propshaft. I am not talking about the large yanmar though, It must be replaced with a much smaller and lighter diesel. As the diesel motor+generator is not connected mechanically to the traction motor, it will be a paralell hybrid.

[Tibor- Puma 38]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Genset? Are you talking about a 'Serial' hybrid?

by Genset, i mean a small diesel+an alternator which provides high DC voltagecurrent to the battery. As the diesel motor+alternator will be mechanically independent from the traction motor and the propshaft, It counts as a paralell hybrid, i think.

[Tibor- Puma 38]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

I already have two 135hp diesels on our cat.
I want to put in a parallel hybrid on one side, but all the existing systems (like hybridmarine) supply the matched diesel whereas I want to use our existing one.
Has anyone done this before to a mid-size inboard diesel?
Please note, if you ask "why", I'll just ignore you: the reasons don't matter, I'm only after whether anyone has done it, or has ideas on how to do it better/well.
I don't need asking why do I want to or told why it won't work. Thank you .

By parallel hybrid, I mean an electric motor next to/above the drive shaft allowing continuing diesel power, or electric-only power, to the same drive shaft.
Now the reduction gearbox on the existing diesel is mated directly to the motor (2:1), and (I assume but haven't checked) a thrust bearing. So it wouldn't be possible to insert a drive belt from the electric to in between the motor and gearbox to reuse the gearbox. But that means I can't use a reduction gearbox from the electric on-shaft either as then I'd have double reduction for the diesel.

So I'd need motor + controller + gearbox (2:1 reduction) + ability to run a tensioned belt or chain to the existing shaft. Oh, and of course the other parts of the system I'll ignore for now (batteries, throttle, etc.). Many of the controllers permit "regen" from the controller, so I shouldn't need a clutch on the shaft to decouple the electric when the diesel is running. Existing shaft speed is 500-1200rpm.

At the moment I'm thinking of playing with the thunderstruck motor, sevcon 48 controller and reduction gearbox. But I'm a bit stuck on the best way to attach a chain or tensioned belt to the 1.5" shaft - any ideas?

May work fine with a pulley on the rop shaft after the current gearbox and connecting it with a v- or serpentine belt to the pulley on the electric motor. Mind you, you may need a suitable bearing supporting the electrict motor shaft - the internal bearings may not be designed for such a direction of force. As for the regen: if you set the regen to zero, than the electric motor will be minimal load on the diesel engine when you run the diesel. However if you set the regen higher, the electric motor will ne a serious load on the diesel. You need a controller which allowes you to regulate the regen by a potmeter.