How is Greece or Croatia for new bareboat skippers?

[Steve Mason]

We chartered last May in Croatia snd it was wonderful. Took a charter from just north of Split with the Moorings. Nice facilities and good support. Sailing much like the BVI just the distances are greater between the islands so account for more time each day you move.
On the topic of med mooring. All the harbors we overnighted in and this was 90% of our time, there was no anchoring involved. Back towards the open spot on the harbor wall with port and starboard lines ready off the stern. Harbor attendant catches your lines and ties you off while handing you a “sand line” which you run up to the bow to secure to a mooring underwater. Look on YouTube. Lots of examples for how this works. Similar to Avalon Harbor in Catalina but against the harbor wall. Simple and efficient. Harbor support was good but have your stern lines ready before you start to back in or your experience might be different. They get grumpy if you are not prepared.
Enjoy. It is one of the most beautiful locations to charter. The towns/harbors hold so much to explore and enjoy we ended up enjoying those rather than anchoring out.. The opposite of the BVI. It’s too cold in May to be in the water anyway . Again unlike the BVI.

[Goodall_M1]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

The "proper" way is to go toward the shore at speed, drop the anchor and secure the chain, put engine in neutral. The anchor will grab, the boat will turn around on its bow and if everything goes according to plan you will be 3 feet from the dock. No backing required. This is by far the fastest docking method.

Sailing is generally easy but you either get too little wind (hot) or too much wind. Not to worry, if there is too much wind, you just stay ashore, eat and drink.

Pizzazz is taking the p**s here!
Try doing this when aiming for a 10 ft wide gap between two boats on the quay and see what your prospective neighbours think of your approach...

If doing Med mooring for the first time you may find it easiest to come into the harbour stern first then you can control where you drop your hook whilst still keeping steerage way and whilst aiming at the spot that you have chosen.

I actually prefer to med-moor with the bow anchor rather then with a lazy line as you have something to hold the bow steady if there is any crosswind.

If possible I aim to come in upwind of another boat then she will stop you drifting off of your target spot (make sure your fenders are set ready for the nudge that you will give her). Aiming for one that has crew aboard will also normally mean that you will have someone ready to catch your stern lines without one of your crew having to jump ashore.

As for your question about Croatia or Greece...

As someone has already said be prepared to pay a lot more to moor in Croatia than in Greece. Many of the Croatian village harbours provide excellent facilities (e.g. Water and Power at every berth) and charge almost as much as their marinas do. One way to save a few bucks is to go for a restaurant quay where they will help you moor and normally not charge you as long as you eat in their restaurant. The last time I was in Croatia I went into Korcula marina with a 39ft mono-hull and got hit for about 100 euros for the night.

Most Greek villages will probably charge 10 - 30 euros (if they can be bothered to come around)

The other big difference is that the Croatians do have buoyage. You will see things that you are used to like cardinal marks and isolated danger marks.
Don't rely on them having marks on everything though... I have found a couple of rocks with my keel in my travels out there but in bays rather than out in the channel

In Greek waters I have often made a point of showing folks the buoy in the channel between Skiathos and the mainland.
Why? Well it is the only navigational mark that I know about in the Sporades, and it is a fairway mark rather than a warning buoy.
My handheld GPS has about 20 proximity alarms on it to remind me of potentially dangerous unmarked shoals etc in the Greek waters where I sail.
One example is the Ifaloy Panagia which is in the channel between Paxos and the mainland. There are two lighthouses with red sectors to warn you of its presence at night but no mark on it at all. When I asked a Greek friend about it he said "Yes two of the trip boats from Parga hit it last year, that will teach them to employ local crews in future! Go straight from Gaios (on Paxos) to Parga and you will probably find it easily".

(I got back from my latest trip to Greece two weeks ago and am already booked for another two weeks in October)

[FabioC]

Yes, I would classify Greece and Croatia on the relatively easy side: few hazards, relatively short passages, etc.

Croatia is easier than Greece, in Greece you can get a week of very challenging weather conditions even in the middle of summer...

Med mooring of course is an essential skill to have; factor in some learning curve; at the very least, try to practice stern in docking into a narrow slip with cross beam wind before going there; the good thing is that other boaters are generally ready to help if things go (literally) sideways.

The one thing that makes Croatia and Greece potentially challenging in summer is the notion of "crowded marinas". If you have not experienced it, you can't possibly imagine how bad it can get... so, if you are not comfortable to operate your boat in very close quarters among boats of all sizes and types, coming from all directions, do not go there in July/August.

[beirutsailor]

Important for novice: Greece is not Greece. The more fascinating Agean is hell in the afternoon in summer, most days. I have seen people burst into tears after a ruined holiday on charter, even on big boats. The Ionian is duller, but greener. And (too) calm. Best to start there - much much cheaper than Croatia.

[jim King]

Both Greece and Croatia have great sailing grounds. Both also have world heritage cities most places you will med more on a quay. Do practice med mooring on a fairly empty quay to get your ropes down. One or two times and you'll do it like a pro. Be sure to back straight in if you are on a crowded quay as you could cross chains with your neighbor. Not so much fun to un-tangle. Done that, been there, hope not to again.
I usually go in September. Still warm but not hot and the tourists have mostly gone home. I also advise using Sunsail/Moorings over Dream yacht charter.
cheers,
Jim

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by beirutsailor

Important for novice: Greece is not Greece. The more fascinating Agean is hell in the afternoon in summer, most days. I have seen people burst into tears after a ruined holiday on charter, even on big boats. The Ionian is duller, but greener. And (too) calm. Best to start there - much much cheaper than Croatia.

Yes! Pay attention. The Ionian is mostly pretty tame, which is why a lot of the bareboat chartering is done with flotillas for newbies - groups of about a dozen bareboats with one boat with a crew from the charter company. The lead boat helps with the planning, any problems along the way, and arrives first so that they can be on the quay to help with the Med mooring. It is a very easy introduction to Mediterranean chartering, and the distances are modest so no long days. It is unusual to get strong winds there in the summer but it does happen, and if it does you will have that professional help.

The Aegean is a much larger area and often has high winds, sometimes for days. This can really screw up schedules. And while beating into a force 6 can be fun for the hard core there are a lot of spouses out there that may never sail again after a day of that.

Croatia is a great cruising ground, and thus is very popular and very expensive. It is a different experience than Greece: Greece is all about the ancient world and Greek culture and food, Croatia is full of Medieval cities and good food. Croatia is very popular with the Italians especially and so when they are on vacation it is packed. Because there is a mountain range along the coast, in the summer thunderstorms start up in the afternoon, moving down the mountains to the coast and out into the Adriatic, where they dissipate overnight. This means that every time you anchor you need to anchor like a storm is coming. It is not unusual to see charter boats blown up onto the beach or rocks while the crew were ashore sightseeing (I'm not kidding, or exaggerating). I spent parts of two summers there and definitely enjoyed it, but I do not think it is an entry level cruising experience.

Go to the Ionian, take it easy and have a great time. Learn how to Med moor with the provided help. Enjoy the tavernas, easy sailing, and great beauty.

Greg

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That’s a sure fire way to screw up a med mooring

Firstly you never set an anchor “ at speed “ absolutely not correct

Secondly In Greece you could start dropping in 10m of water by the time the anchor bites and you swing you’ll be gaily taking out pulpits galore. There’s is almost no room on most quay walks to swing within “3 feet of the dock “ or anything like it. Usually you are squeezing in between two boats.

Don’t do what suggested above

In my view don’t stop the stop to snug the anchor on the way in as this throws you off the line of approach ( especially if your dealing with wind or are not perpendicular to the intended berth place. ) run out the chain and stop within the required distance of the wall, get a line ashore and tension up using the windlass. If you can’t you can release the shore lines , to their max extent and back up under power to dig in the anchor and snug back up the line ashore.

Praxtice spotting the anchor chain runs of the boats either side of you and drop between them of at all possible , even if not perpendicular to the berth , remember if you lay across another chain it’s your problem not theirs. ( a point missed by too many in my experience )

If you do ( or when ) foul a chain , carry a means to hook the chain up so as to drop your hook and release it. You will not do this with a boat hook , and please ( unlike the idiot yesterday ) drop the other persons anchor back roughly in the same spot , they will have to re anchor as well.

Don’t retrieve your anchor by dragging it to the boat , get right over it or slightly ahead of it and do a straight lift.

Be careful to drop the hook out as far as your chain allows irrespective of the depth , there is often debris on the bottom closer into the quay walls etc , putting out 50-70 metres is common

This is pretty much the way to go.. Couple of more things;
-drop the anchor slightly towards the prevailing wind
-don't come too close to the quay, in almost every islands there are ferries coming in and out every time of the day and they make huge swells. Don't leave yr gagway attached to the quay when you are not on board, you may break something with those swells.
-most sailors believes that the more chain you leave the safer you are. This is not always true if you con't lay the anchor on the buttom pretty straight.
-if the buttom is weddy, go for white sandy spots to drop the anchor. (if you can find any..)
-if there is strong side wind, move a bit faster and compensate the leeway. If you go too slow you will end up on yr neighbour's chain..And the chain under the rudder or prop is not fun.

Cheers

Yeloya

[goboatingnow]

Just to contra dict

Firstly in many town quays in the Ionian , the wind comes from every direction often reversing several times a day. Local topology affects everything.

The primary place to drop your hook is not on top of your neighbours. Hence that and not the wind will determine where you drop it.

So if you arrive in a calm you may still find you can’t lay the anchor out perpendicular

Do lay out as much chain as you can don’t skimp better to have more out then less , as I said don’t snug up the anchor as you are backing down. Do that afterwards

Everyone ends up one passarelle distance away from the quay wall , as everyone wants to come and go. Only in a few places are the ferry washes an issue. Even then I’m almost 2 metres out with my current passarelle

Anchor chains crossing are a fact of life in crowded harbours , if you get fouled by another , start your engine , go into gear and release the tension on your rode to allow them to lift your chain , you may have to go out and Re anchor

Don’t start shouting and getting cross it’s just the way it is.

Equally of you foul someone’s chain be courteous , try and drop everything back close to where you found it.

( a cat picked up two chains yesterday , then drifted over two more before they dumped the fouled chains , fouling 4 boats in the process )

Yes especially around Lefkada things get very crowded but there are millions of bays and out of the way places.

Equally if you have time just sail out of the reach of the week long charter boats. !!

At the moment town quays with one or two exceptions are charging about €1 per metre per night , extra for lecky and water. Many town quays remain free. ( Kalamos , kastos , mythikas , little vaithi , etc ). Efficient charge collection on Ithaca , kefalonia , lefkas , preveza , ( and they will check your tepkai on their computer records to boot )

Having sailed in both places , Greece is considerably cheaper then Croatia.

Note that in Greece lazy lines are not common and actually I prefer lying to my anchor

[goboatingnow]

If anyone’s in the area , look me up , I fly a defaced Irish ensign ,these are a rare beast.

[bensolomon]

Came back from a two-week one-way charter in Croatia in september. We left from split and sailed to Dubrovnik and got off the boat. Absolute best sailing vacation ever! We have chartered numerous times. BVI five times, Greece, French Polynesia, St Vincent and the grenadines, St lucia.

For all of those trips I used the moorings, but this time I went with ultra sailing because moorings wouldn't allow a one-way charter. They were spectacular! We took a fountain Pajot elba 45 and it was amazing! We used www.NauticEd.org to help book the trip and they were invaluable in making sure that our documentation was okay, our crew lists were okay, answered questions and helped with everything. etc.

I highly recommend you get the paper charts. You can order them online and it will take a few weeks for you to get them, but they were invaluable for my trip planning and daily chart brief with everybody on board. Also, you must get the Adriatic pilot written by Trevor and Dinah thompson. It is imperative that you study the charts and the Adriatic pilot prior to arriving in croatia. The weather conditions will change and you will have to change your proposed itinerary. Familiarity with the area is essential to a successful and happy charter. Once you leave the larger islands, there is not much in the way of Marina support if that's what you're used to. You will most importantly need to plan your water stops carefully.

Best time to go are in the shoulder seasons which is either September and October or just before the summer season starts. The September October is the dryer season there. We were there for an entire 2 weeks and nothing but Blue sky.

I am happy to share my itinerary, what we did, the bike wine tours that we took, the farm to table restaurants we ate at, etc. Best meals I've ever eaten were on this trip.

There were so many day excursions that we did. Grease paled in comparison to this trip. The wine is spectacular! I didn't even know that Croatia was wine country until we got there. Then the wine drinking became the cornerstone of our whole trip. Every island is different and they make the wine there and they only make enough bottles for themselves. Also, the oysters in Stone were the best I've ever eaten and I'm a Chesapeake Bay person.

I could go on and on about how wonderful the Croatia trip was for us. As I said, just send me an email and I will share with you my PowerPoint and all of the things I put together to keep our crew briefed on the trip.

Best of luck!

Ben

[goboatingnow]

Both cruising grounds ( in fact the whole Eastern Adriatic is fantastic ) are brilliant. Both areas have fantastic wine , food , history and people. Croatia has definitely become very expensive in the tourist areas but far less so inland. Greece remains probably the cheapest tourist destination even if inflation has hits certain things hard. I have done a fair bit of sailing in Croatia. But I’m in Greece because I like the Greeks.

Lots of boaters left Croatia prepandemic due to high costs but Brexit has meant the brits now are going back to Turkey hopefully reducing some pressure on over crowded Greek harbours.

Now that said wheres that bugger that fouled my anchor and left with my boat having no anchor on the wall at preveza !! , jeepers can’t a guy go shopping without an incident

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Not sure why people freak out about med mooring, to me it’s simpler then coming along side , drop your hook 40 -50 metres out...

I can try to explain it to you.

You have a Bav36, a fin keeled boat with a spade rudder. Boats like this are renowned for their ability to back with ease. I've sailed fin keelers like this, they are a breeze to maneuver while backing down. But other kinds of hulls are not so compliant in this area.

My boat's hull is a modified full keel with a skeg hung rudder. She backs up like a top, by which I mean she spins in circles. I have a small bow thruster which allows me to gain some measure of control when backing, but after 20+ years with the same boat, I still shudder when I think about having to back up anywhere, even backing out of my own slip if there is any wind blowing!

Med mooring is one of the things keenly on my mind as I contemplate cruising in the med. Coming along side or into a finger pier? Child's play by comparison.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I can try to explain it to you.



You have a Bav36, a fin keeled boat with a spade rudder. Boats like this are renowned for their ability to back with ease. I've sailed fin keelers like this, they are a breeze to maneuver while backing down. But other kinds of hulls are not so compliant in this area.



My boat's hull is a modified full keel with a skeg hung rudder. She backs up like a top, by which I mean she spins in circles. I have a small bow thruster which allows me to gain some measure of control when backing, but after 20+ years with the same boat, I still shudder when I think about having to back up anywhere, even backing out of my own slip if there is any wind blowing!



Med mooring is one of the things keenly on my mind as I contemplate cruising in the med. Coming along side or into a finger pier? Child's play by comparison.

I just backup a long keel last week. It’s a little more involved but largely involved bursts of ahead power to reorientate the stern as you back down.

The second technique is to now use the snubbing effect of the anchor to your advantage , if she’s drifting off line , snub up and that tends to reorientate the stern to your advantage.

It will take longer and can get out of hand the bow thruster helps a lot. A VLIM long keel came in very nicely beside me yesterday
Remember you are not just backing down you are anchoring , use this fact to your advantage.

I watched a guy struggle in kastos with a very contrary long keel but he managed in the end.

I also have a friend with a long keeled wooden ketch , he kicks the tiller around with his knee and makes it look effortless. A joy to watch, the experts do it slow and precise

[goboatingnow]

In the med where along side morning does occur it’s not ever on fingers so you need to slot in precisely in front of your neighbour and behind the guy ahead. It’s far more fraught then stern to

[CarinaPDX]

Backing into a spot on the quay is not the only way to Med moor. Carina has a full keel with a "barn door" transom-hung rudder. In some places the rudder would hit the bottom near the quay if backed in, and even with a large plank it is difficult to climb through the gear on the pushpit to get off and on the boat. My technique was to go bow-in, lowering the Danforth stern anchor well off the quay and allowing the rode to pay out from its roller storage as I motored straight into the spot, with the bow lines looped over the front of the pushpit ready to go. Usually there were people ashore to take the lines, loop through or around and then back to the pulpit for me to secure aboard. The rode was tensioned with a primary winch on the cockpit coaming. Access was off the front of the bowsprit - sometimes with a plank but often, with lower quays, I just stepped off the bowsprit. Other than being easy to do this technique leaves the companionway private from shoreside, and the cockpit away from passersby. I was very comfortable with this mooring.

Greg