EU citizens - non EU registered but VAT paid boat - Are we crazy?

[Reiziger]

Originally Posted by Barra

Interesting. explains why even officials get confused then with some EU countries with certificates others without. You can see why a dutch customs officer would want a certificate and a french one the invoice. Confusion is the status quo then.

They do exist in every EU country (EU member before 1985) for yachts build before 1985. For sure France is in this category.

How would France possibly register a yacht, for example build in 1900, from the pre-VAT times?

CeesH

[Barra]

no for sure france is NOT in this category. i have been there done that. they just look at you strangely when you ask.

confusion the norm on this topic still!

[Prairie Chicken]

They do exist in every EU country (EU member before 1985) for yachts build before 1985. For sure France is in this category.

How would France possibly register a yacht, for example build in 1900, from the pre-VAT times?

And in Spain we were told boats which pre-date VAT do not need proof of VAT-paid due to their age. You just need to prove the age of the boat.

I agree, in most cases there is not a VAT certificate. The original sales receipt, showing VAT was paid at time of purchase, is all the documentation required. In some cases, such as ours or as Reizinger suggests, a document is produced.

Deliberate thread drift question: In the event the original sales receipt showing VAT was paid when the boat/car/motocycle/whatever was first purchased--is lost, stolen, eaten by the dog, destroyed by fire--whatever--how does one prove your asset is VAT paid?

[goboatingnow]

Ive a lot of experience in this area

firstly

Okay - I can't resist the topic creep

I do believe this is the key - "imported by the person that exported it from the EU", means that regardless of what happens, as long as we reflag to an EU country before selling, VAT is preserved. And this is a UK document - each EU country has it's own interpretations of how to govern VAT!

Actually They don't, VAT is harmonised across the EU, the same laws that apply in the UK apply in other EU countries and vice versa, unless a specific derogation was sought on accession, most of these have expired.

What is unfortunately different across Europe, is specific customs agents knowledge of the relevant VAT laws and directives. Often they may not be aware of specific issues regarding boats etc.


There are a few points Id like to clear up

1. The flag of the boat has absolutely no bearing on the VAT status (* see below) , It has no bearing on whether the boat was exported from the EU or not. Its utterly irrelevant as far as VAT law goes,

2. There is no specific VAT certificate ( despite our dutch friends paperwork). If you pay VAT to customs directly ( i.e. you personally import the vessel), you will receive a customs receipt of VAT. Note this means you paid a sum of VAT, it doesn't actually mean you paid the correct VAT or that you paid it in the correct country It merely means , thank you for giving us some of your money.

3. The vast majority of VAT is paid when boats are purchased new, In that case THE ONLY document you have is a sales invoice, because VAT is NOT reported on an individual basis, revenue authorities have no way of knowing what actual VAT is paid on what.

4. VAT is a transaction tax, it is not a asset tax. VAT can be due multiple times, depending on the type and nature of the transactions that take place. An Asset actually cannot have a "VAT status", since the VAT is related to a transaction, but the term is used .

5. Some but not all flag registries need VAT proof, IN my experience, they all except a sale invoice ( since in practice thats all there is). Some registries actually want to see the chain of documents following each sale back to the original importer, that can be awkward

6. There are many cases when boats are registered that have NO vat paid, sailing schools, commercial operations, distributors etc, are VAT registered and in effect do not pay VAT or can reclaim VAT.


7. The question was asked, if you loose the VAT paperwork, it can be very difficult or impossible to replace it. Customs have no record of any specific payment, unless the boat was personally imported.

8. by the way , for all of you considering paying VAT, under EU rules, VAT on " new means of transport" ( i.e. boats over 7,5 m) is correctly due in the " country of destination", not simply the first one you hit. The country of destination has been taken to mean the country where the boat is or will be habitually kept. IN theory if you are sailing from the purchase destination to your home, you are meant to arrange with customs along the route in advance that you will be travelling and pay the VAT in the final destination on arrival.

Luckily VAT on the high seas is not ad issue and blown out of all proportion in internet forums.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Reiziger

They do exist in every EU country (EU member before 1985) for yachts build before 1985. For sure France is in this category.

How would France possibly register a yacht, for example build in 1900, from the pre-VAT times?

CeesH

No they don't , the UK for a time set up a division in Dover that issued such paperwork, on production of proof that the vessel was in the EU before the date in question ( note its not the built date thats important)It no longer issues any paperwork in that regard

Many countries did not do anything formal. To claim the exception in france, you would merely have to provide evidence that the vessel was in France before that date ( for example a marina bill, fuel etc).

[Reiziger]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No they don't , the UK for a time set up a division in Dover that issued such paperwork, on production of proof that the vessel was in the EU before the date in question ( note its not the built date thats important)It no longer issues any paperwork in that regard

Many countries did not do anything formal. To claim the exception in france, you would merely have to provide evidence that the vessel was in France before that date ( for example a marina bill, fuel etc).

As far as my memory brings me, the 1st of January 1985 the EU laws changed for the VAT rules for Recreational Boats. All boats at that moment present in the EU and without a sales slip received very easy, almost with out questions asked, a VAT Paid Certificate from their local Customs. This document still exist in the EU as part of this EU Law. More important boats without a sales slip can still become this Certificate when they can prove that the boat was originally sold in one of the EU states, many times the Building Yard can supply this prove.

As far as I remembered, all this long time ago i used to get my VAT Paid proof.

PS, a Dutch friend living in Holland today told me that when a Frenchman buys a boat in Holland the first thing they ask is or a VAT Sales Bill or a VAT Paid Certificate issued by the Customs......

CeesH

[cstan22]

OP, what happened in this situation? We are US Citizens but have residency in Greece because my wife is also a French Citizen. We are buying a VAT-paid boat, want to register it in the USA, and intend to stay here in Europe. Did you have any problems with your similar situation?

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by cstan22

OP, what happened in this situation? We are US Citizens but have residency in Greece because my wife is also a French Citizen. We are buying a VAT-paid boat, want to register it in the USA, and intend to stay here in Europe. Did you have any problems with your similar situation?

Sorry for slow response!

It has worked out fine for us 4th season almost done! Greece requires that your VAT documents are officially translated, but other than that we've only had a few confusion (as in lack of knowledge of the rules by officials) related issues. The key is that if you are using an EU passport to get around the Schengen 90-day rules, your boat needs to be VAT paid. Where it is flagged is not an issue.

Enjoy!!!

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Reiziger

They do exist, see the attached example of a Dutch VAT Paid Certificate issued by the Dutch Tax Office Customs department.



CeesH

Does UK HMRC issue a nice document like that? Looks more convincing that my 30years old slice of paper, multiple owners before me...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by GTom

Does UK HMRC issue a nice document like that? Looks more convincing that my 30years old slice of paper, multiple owners before me...

Ah, but your documents are the actually VAT invoices, from dealer to first owner. You might get a letter from HMRC in lieu of an invoice giving "an opinion" but I will keep my VAT invoices thanks.

Pete