Low priced LiFePO4 Batteries vs High priced

[davil]

My intention is to open a thread dedicated ONLY to LOW END PRICED Batteries

Please, limit postings to the stated heading.
Be specific to brands or types.

There are many threads dedicated to different aspects of LiFePO4 installation and technical considerations, more than 1000 postings!

My goal is to find answers to the following questions

What makes prices so widely different, with extremes from a few hundred dollars ($ 370) to over ($ 1000) for a common 100AH unit.

Have spent considerable time on Google, Brand sites,Rod's comprehensive review (Marine How)

Looked at customer reviews on Amazon for different brands.

The usual answer "you get what you pay for" does not necessarily provide logical explanations.

Depending on type of sailing, cruising, variables such as charging and monitor systems not all owners have the same needs and perhaps installing the top of the line may be an overkill IF having facts to make an informed decision.

Findings

These are some of the points that try to explain the reasons for price disparity.

Quality of product, such as cells not properly secured, protected and separated inside box.

Type, not all use same technology, been the preferred Prismatic vs Cylindrical.

BMS crucial element and a weak point on lower end prices.

Amazon listing over 4000 reviews with each one purchasing more than one battery brings a possible usage of 10000? units? with mostly positive experiences.

As reference, these are some of the more rated/purchased brands

CHINS LiFePO4 Battery 12V 100AH Lithium Battery - Built-in 100A BMS,

Ampere Time LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery 12V 100Ah with Built-in 100A BMS

[Tenedos]

I use 7 100Ah Renogy LiFePO4s. They have bluetooth. Their software/firmware is utter crap but as batteries they are pretty decent, due to software/firmware, bluetooth is useless.

[davil]

Have another comment regarding this topic.
this is a response to a question I placed in Amazon

the battery in question

Ampere Time LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery 12V 100Ah with Built-in 100A BMS
$379.99
=============================

Answers to your question
"why $ 379 ? with some brands selling over $ 1000, what features are missing?

"It was the reviews and other homework that I based my purchase on. Battery has worked fantastic with my hundred watt solar panel and controller with my 2000 W pure sine inverter."

[JBP]

There is a guy on You Tube who dissects all sorts of lithium batteries to see how good they really are.

DIY Solar with Will Prowse
https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse/videos

[Phil_Fr17]

I may not be quite in the context of the thread title, but I'll try to answer your main question, which is:
Why such a price difference for the 'same' product?
At least I guess that is your question, there is no "?" in your sentences and not being native English speaker, it is difficult to understand your requests...

- The quality of the cells, we often read in the announcements of the sellers "class A, B, rarely C" while NEVER knowing what this letter means.
- Surpluses and unsold items, collected by sellers at low prices and resold at the average market price.
- The original brand of the cells, knowing that the Chinese have the ability to change the labels according to the market and the demand of the customer who only wants cheap and even cheaper.
- The amount of research and investment to have a reliable product, something that few brands or manufacturers really do, preferring to sit on their laurels and sell to "all comers customer" without any guarantee.
- The real quality control of the product.
- The anti-fire or anti-explosion standards, such as the UN 38.3 standard, very rarely accompanying the product sold, very rarely displayed and tested. And I do NOT want to speak about CE standard.
- The guarantee, real or false, because returning a pallet of cells to China or to a reseller who only has an email address is quite difficult for the customer who has problems with his cells.
- The obligation to have a BMS, very often badly adapted and manufactured without any quality control, with unsuitable parameters and a tightness comparable to that of a blotter.
- Many BMS are unsuitable for our use and our specific environment and brutally cut the cells or the battery in the event of over-voltage or under-voltage.

- Protective envelopes of the cells in metal, vulgar scrap metal often painted in blue and which rusts at the first spray of salty water.
- connection lugs poorly fixed to the body which can lead to cuts, electric arcs and breakage of the cell, not to mention the mixing of metals leading to electrolysis with the salt spray.
- Very vague, poorly translated and often unreadable or wrong manuals and features, mainly in the settings.


So, 'Yes, you get what you pay for'.

I have been using Winston and Calb cells for more than 10 years now, WITHOUT BMS in a backup installation at home due to regular power cuts (end of power line), and on my boat too I use Winston without BMS, charging with Solar Panels or alternator, no problem, the batteries are at 99% SOC.
Yes, it's expensive to buy, but it doesn't explode, I have the certificates, it's solid, relatively light, very reliable (several deep discharges at 2.55 volts/element) and robust.
I will never play the lottery with cheap cell systems and unreliable BMS on my boat to avoid risking losing everything including my life, because it is now common to say that LiFePo4 do not burn, explode, are bullet proof, overload proof,but BMS are damn prone to major problems because of cheap electronic inside.

And with Winston, Calb, Calt, Sinopoly - in our nautical use - there is no need to use a BMS.
Last advantage of batteries or cells with yttrium (LiFeYPo4), their characteristics make it easy to replace a lead or AGM battery with this type of battery without modifying (or very little) the charge and discharge parameters and that possibly, adding a quality DC-DC charger to avoid burning the alternator is enough to rest easy in case of prolonged engine use.

[davil]

Originally Posted by JBP

There is a guy on You Tube who dissects all sorts of lithium batteries to see how good they really are.

DIY Solar with Will Prowse
https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse/videos

Originally Posted by Phil_Fr17

I may not be quite in the context of the thread title, but I'll try to answer your main question, which is:
Why such a price difference for the 'same' product?
At least I guess that is your question, there is no "?" in your sentences and not being native English speaker, it is difficult to understand your requests...

- The quality of the cells, we often read in the announcements of the sellers "class A, B, rarely C" while NEVER knowing what this letter means.
- Surpluses and unsold items, collected by sellers at low prices and resold at the average market price.
- The original brand of the cells, knowing that the Chinese have the ability to change the labels according to the market and the demand of the customer who only wants cheap and even cheaper.
- The amount of research and investment to have a reliable product, something that few brands or manufacturers really do, preferring to sit on their laurels and sell to "all comers customer" without any guarantee.
- The real quality control of the product.
- The anti-fire or anti-explosion standards, such as the UN 38.3 standard, very rarely accompanying the product sold, very rarely displayed and tested. And I do NOT want to speak about CE standard.
- The guarantee, real or false, because returning a pallet of cells to China or to a reseller who only has an email address is quite difficult for the customer who has problems with his cells.
- The obligation to have a BMS, very often badly adapted and manufactured without any quality control, with unsuitable parameters and a tightness comparable to that of a blotter.
- Many BMS are unsuitable for our use and our specific environment and brutally cut the cells or the battery in the event of over-voltage or under-voltage.

- Protective envelopes of the cells in metal, vulgar scrap metal often painted in blue and which rusts at the first spray of salty water.
- connection lugs poorly fixed to the body which can lead to cuts, electric arcs and breakage of the cell, not to mention the mixing of metals leading to electrolysis with the salt spray.
- Very vague, poorly translated and often unreadable or wrong manuals and features, mainly in the settings.


So, 'Yes, you get what you pay for'.

I have been using Winston and Calb cells for more than 10 years now, WITHOUT BMS in a backup installation at home due to regular power cuts (end of power line), and on my boat too I use Winston without BMS, charging with Solar Panels or alternator, no problem, the batteries are at 99% SOC.
Yes, it's expensive to buy, but it doesn't explode, I have the certificates, it's solid, relatively light, very reliable (several deep discharges at 2.55 volts/element) and robust.
I will never play the lottery with cheap cell systems and unreliable BMS on my boat to avoid risking losing everything including my life, because it is now common to say that LiFePo4 do not burn, explode, are bullet proof, overload proof,but BMS are damn prone to major problems because of cheap electronic inside.

And with Winston, Calb, Calt, Sinopoly - in our nautical use - there is no need to use a BMS.
Last advantage of batteries or cells with yttrium (LiFeYPo4), their characteristics make it easy to replace a lead or AGM battery with this type of battery without modifying (or very little) the charge and discharge parameters and that possibly, adding a quality DC-DC charger to avoid burning the alternator is enough to rest easy in case of prolonged engine use.

====================================
Appreciate your taking the time

All the issues you so appropriate point out are real.!!

However, with thousands of units being used, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate?

But again, my thread is not intended to argue pros and cons as much as exploring those who have ventured into the uncharted waters of the "cheapo" offerings.
Again, thank you for your contribution.

A tout’

[s/v Jedi]

There are some considerations that are often overlooked:

- cheap cells are often used cells or rejects. Even at the high end of the Eve class of cells, there is more variance in internal resistance, leading to pack imbalance.

- where you can get away without a BMS on top quality cells like Winston, the others require a BMS not only to monitor imbalance, but also to rebalance the cells automatically.

- most BMS’s are really bad at balancing cells. Which ones do a decent job should be one of the deciding factors for selecting batteries.

- because of the need to rebalance, cheaper batteries need to be fully charged at regular intervals. The reason is that balancing only activates when the battery is charging while nearly full. The bad thing is that being regularly charged that high reduces lifespan.

- it’s impossible to tell what is inside a drop-in cell without watching the videos from Will Prowse. Most buyers didn’t and face palm when they learn afterwards.

[mojoman2]

I bought 4 x 200 AHr LiFePO4 12 V batteries directly from GSL - Energy in China. The purchase was done on Alibaba.com. I was cautious so I bought 2 about two years ago and then 2 more this year. Each pair cost about $1,400 including shipping, which took about 5 weeks to come to Europe by sea. You can pay more to get them faster by air. They have a built in BMS and are drop in replacements. Of course, you have to make sure that your electrical system meets the charging requirements. I love them - they are so much better than AGM's. I am a full time live aboard so the get cycled everyday, and we treat them like we would when living on land. I charge them with solar, engine alternators, and a battery charger connected to shore power or a generator. They charge so much faster and hold so much more charge that my electrical system is working better than ever. I think the expensive name brand batteries in the US and Europe or only just taking advantage of a new technology and nervous consumers and insurance companies (some require professional Li installations).

[davil]

Originally Posted by mojoman2

I bought 4 x 200 AHr LiFePO4 12 V batteries directly from GSL - Energy in China. The purchase was done on Alibaba.com. I was cautious so I bought 2 about two years ago and then 2 more this year. Each pair cost about $1,400 including shipping, which took about 5 weeks to come to Europe by sea. You can pay more to get them faster by air. They have a built in BMS and are drop in replacements. Of course, you have to make sure that your electrical system meets the charging requirements. I love them - they are so much better than AGM's. I am a full time live aboard so the get cycled everyday, and we treat them like we would when living on land. I charge them with solar, engine alternators, and a battery charger connected to shore power or a generator. They charge so much faster and hold so much more charge that my electrical system is working better than ever. I think the expensive name brand batteries in the US and Europe or only just taking advantage of a new technology and nervous consumers and insurance companies (some require professional Li installations).

=================================
thank you very much for your contribution and right on the topic.

[LeighC]

Some cheap LFP batteries can't be paralleled & some can't be put in series if needed or advised not to.

[wholybee]

Source of cells. Cheaper Drop ins can be manufactured with gray market cells, grade B cells, or Grade A cells that were previously sold, but returned having not been used. This is apparently common in China, as an EV manufacture will order a batch of cells, but not use them all. Many of the cheap prismatic cells from China fall into this category.

All the drop-ins will have a FET based BMS. The actual FETs used can vary dramatically in price and quality. They might use cheaper FETs that would be "rated" at 50A, but would fail if used at 50A for extended periods. Or maybe they don't even bother using FETs that are rated at the current the battery is sold for. You can look at BMSs on Amazon, and see that they range in price from about $10 to several hundred.

Wire size used in build. No one would ever (I hope) use 10AWG wire to connect a battery rated at 100A to their boat systems. But many cheap drop-ins use undersized wire as small as 10AWG internally.

Physical construction inside the battery. Are the cells just taped together? Or is there a solid metal frame of some sort providing the compression the cell manufactures require?

I don't think bluetooth adds very much to the cost of a battery. However, by not having that connection, you might be unaware of a significant unbalance or problem within the battery. So, you continue to be a happy customer, when the battery is near failing, or has reduced capacity, and should be returned.

Lastly, the return policy of the manufacturer. Are you really going to ship a cheap battery back to China, or learn your lesson and buy a more expensive one next time?

The honest truth is that none of this may matter to many boaters. These batteries might have an "unacceptable" rate of failure, but if you are on a bay or river, and always within reach of safety, you might choose to take that risk. Most of them won't fail, or if they do fail early, they will have years of use before they do. And there is no evidence they will cause a fire or have some other catastrophic failure.

If you want a battery that is extremely likely to last for more than a decade, or if you are going to cross an ocean or be away from rescue, you would be wise to avoid these, and follow ABYC guidelines (which do not explicitly prohibit drop-ins, but none of those you suggested meet)

I doubt any insurance company would knowingly insure a boat with the cheaper drop-ins.

I would not install any of these in my boat. However, I am considering them for my parents RV.

[davil]

Originally Posted by LeighC

Some cheap LFP batteries can't be paralleled & some can't be put in series if needed or advised not to.

===============
off topic

[goboatingnow]

While I have bought and used cheap LFP cells. I would be entirely wary of cheap “ drop in”

I’d never consider running LFP with a monitoring BMS. balancing is merely an optional it’s not actually required in my experience

[davil]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

While I have bought and used cheap LFP cells. I would be entirely wary of cheap “ drop in”

I’d never consider running LFP with a monitoring BMS. balancing is merely an optional it’s not actually required in my experience

====================
thank you
good point.

Have followed your comments and opinions on the other thread, you continue posting, and I am learning a lot, thank you for educating us.

Did not want to hijack that thread as my question is very narrow and hopefully will keep people away from posting baseless opinions and off the wall constructs like "shipped on a slow boat from China" etc.

I take to heart your opinion on the BMS, as that seems to be a point of contention on their quality, like the other points I mentioned in my initial posting.

thank you very much

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by davil

====================

thank you

good point.



Have followed your comments and opinions on the other thread, you continue posting, and I am learning a lot, thank you for educating us.



Did not want to hijack that thread as my question is very narrow and hopefully will keep people away from posting baseless opinions and off the wall constructs like "shipped on a slow boat from China" etc.



I take to heart your opinion on the BMS, as that seems to be a point of contention on their quality, like the other points I mentioned in my initial posting.



thank you very much

I should correct my typo. I would never consider any form of lithium without a BMS.