Lithium and Insurance

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Do LiPo gel type have the memory problems other gel cells have?

No. LiPo cells are Lithium-Ion, and completely different from Lead-Acid gel cells.

[RaymondR]

The memory effect was mostly experienced by nickel cadmium gelled electrolyte cells. It was not a problem with liquid electrolyte nickel cadmium cells.

[PaulCrawhorn]

There is a phenomenon in LFP which has been called a "memory effect".

T1 Terry has extensive hands-on experience with testing and preventing it, so below is pending his feedback and corrections as the authority on the phenomenon.

Bottom line, my understanding is, IF you are not at least occasionally charging up past the usual "gentle termination" voltage of 3.45Vpc, then you should, bring it up right to the data sheet spec max say 3.6Vpc and hold Absorption stage there watching trailing current drop to say 0.2C before stopping then discharge at least a bit.

Yes this is stressful but as a maintenance routine say every 50 cycles not harmful.

An additional preventative is, if you are routinely charging to another lower SoC% point, say 60% for storage periods

do not keep using the same exact voltage setpoint, vary it regularly in a 10+% window, so say between 3.22Vpc and 3.28Vpc.

Hitting exactly the same precise SoC% point, over and over for many months (due to excessive reliance on automated controls) has a chemical effect that requires higher currents to get past that point

which can mistakenly be interpreted as a loss if capacity.

I do not think the same has been discovered within the other Lithium-Ion chemistries, LTO or the higher density li-ion ones at nominal 3.6-3.6V

[Capt.Don]

Originally Posted by kenbo

The Markel issue seems to be not lithium iron batteries per se but rather the installation by DYIs.

My Markel agent said they flat out would not insure with Lifepo4. They seem to be confusing lithium-ion batteries as used in cell-phones and EVs, with Lifepo4.

I'm hoping by the time I renew my policy, they re-evaluate their position.

[TheOffice]

Last week I was told by Gowrie that Markel will insure up to 250,000 if the batteries were US manufactured and professionally installed.
FWIW.

[Beausoleil]

Reviving this thread in light of the back page "Parting Shot" of Professional BoatBuilder magazine by ABYC President John Adey. In it he talks about actual destructive testing the ABYC is doing.

BLUF: the US-built batteries are built like tanks, and it took an extraordinary effort to get a properly installed (aka - by an ABYC-certified installer) to burst into flames was nigh near impossible.

They will publish a full report soon. I bet insurance companies will finally listen...

Pretty much the only bad thing he says is that "a drop-in lithium battery that matches the case size of traditional lead-acid or other batteries can really cause more harm than good, especially if it comes without a BMS". Meaning that people replacing batteries only, and not re-engineering the whole charging and monitoring system, will inevitably lead to problems...

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by Beausoleil

Reviving this thread in light of the back page "Parting Shot" of Professional BoatBuilder magazine by ABYC President John Adey. In it he talks about actual destructive testing the ABYC is doing.

BLUF: the US-built batteries are built like tanks, and it took an extraordinary effort to get a properly installed (aka - by an ABYC-certified installer) to burst into flames was nigh near impossible.

They will publish a full report soon. I bet insurance companies will finally listen...

Pretty much the only bad thing he says is that "a drop-in lithium battery that matches the case size of traditional lead-acid or other batteries can really cause more harm than good, especially if it comes without a BMS". Meaning that people replacing batteries only, and not re-engineering the whole charging and monitoring system, will inevitably lead to problems...

Text of the above article is attached. Wouldn't it be hilarious 20 years from now if no insurance companies will insure any boats that have the old style Flooded Lead Acid batteries (FLA) installed?!?

[Anders]

ABYC is now doing the testing that's been on YouTube for years. They are many years behind the times.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Beausoleil

and it took an extraordinary effort to get a properly installed to burst into flames...

They will publish a full report soon. I bet insurance companies will finally listen...

You mean they managed to get a LifePO4 battery to ignite That's torn it, the insurance market are bound to read that the wrong way

Pete

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Pete7

You mean they managed to get a LifePO4 battery to ignite That's torn it, the insurance market are bound to read that the wrong way

Pete

No fire but they managed to get some smoke by driving two nails into the battery.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Anders

No fire but they managed to get some smoke by driving two nails into the battery.

What dumb a** they get to do that?

"Hey Billy Bob, hold my beer while I try somethin. Watch this."

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

What dumb a** they get to do that?

"Hey Billy Bob, hold my beer while I try somethin. Watch this."

Probably a good thing they did, now we know what to expect when some idiot with poorly secured stuff on their boat takes a big wave and something out of their toolbox impales an LFP battery.