LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[mat jam]

The only folks who make the argument you seem to be making about the difficulty, complexity, danger, etc. of LIPO are those who have no experience with them.[/QUOTE]

And how long is your experience? In your need to justify your position you have again ignored the facts that their is a performance degradation dependent on usage. There is also the rushing a product to market before all the issues have been worked out.

After so many pages what is clear, is that their are a lot of unknowns about the actual claims of their use and life cycle. Yet there are regular reports of users batteries just dying. There are limitations of any chemistry and unless there has been a dramatic improvement (which would necessitate a name change) I will believe the guy in the video over a consumer trying to justify their purchase. There is a lot of marketing hype about this and only time will determine the truth. Let us know when you get to ten years.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mat jam

The only folks who make the argument you seem to be making about the difficulty, complexity, danger, etc. of LIPO are those who have no experience with them.

And how long is your experience? In your need to justify your position you have again ignored the facts that their is a performance degradation dependent on usage. There is also the rushing a product to market before all the issues have been worked out.

After so many pages what is clear, is that their are a lot of unknowns about the actual claims of their use and life cycle. Yet there are regular reports of users batteries just dying. There are limitations of any chemistry and unless there has been a dramatic improvement (which would necessitate a name change) I will believe the guy in the video over a consumer trying to justify their purchase. There is a lot of marketing hype about this and only time will determine the truth. Let us know when you get to ten years.[/QUOTE]

sorry but his numbers just don't match with manufacturers specs on lifepo4 batteries.
Those of us that are running them as house banks are doing the work . Those that aren't are the ones talking theory not practicality. Which are you?

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Interesting!

But how does all that relate to decisions faced by a noob end-user who just wants to get maximum functionality at a reasonable price?

It is interesting isn't it.


A noob can read all of the posts or they can go to one of several summary threads or they can do a little research.

New back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

[mat jam]

sorry but his numbers just don't match with manufacturers specs on lifepo4 batteries.
Those of us that are running them as house banks are doing the work . Those that aren't are the ones talking theory not practicality. Which are you?[/QUOTE]

If you are happy with them, great. I am only trying to understand a product I may purchase. I asked a major marine retailer why they do not carry lithium. Their tech guy's reply only reinforces my concerns. There are many things that need to be worked out before they will consider carrying them.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mat jam

sorry but his numbers just don't match with manufacturers specs on lifepo4 batteries.
Those of us that are running them as house banks are doing the work . Those that aren't are the ones talking theory not practicality. Which are you?

If you are happy with them, great. I am only trying to understand a product I may purchase. I asked a major marine retailer why they do not carry lithium. Their tech guy's reply only reinforces my concerns. There are many things that need to be worked out before they will consider carrying them.[/QUOTE]

that is his way of saying there is no long term profit in it for him .
The other is he really doesn't want to learn about them.

[mat jam]

Originally Posted by newhaul

If you are happy with them, great. I am only trying to understand a product I may purchase. I asked a major marine retailer why they do not carry lithium. Their tech guy's reply only reinforces my concerns. There are many things that need to be worked out before they will consider carrying them.

that is his way of saying there is no long term profit in it for him .
The other is he really doesn't want to learn about them.[/QUOTE]

Ah No. They are quite forthcoming in their explanations. I asked about both Firefly and Lithium. Their response re: Lithium if you read my earlier response correctly - their concerns mirror my concerns which are addressed in the video. Re: Firefly - they say shipping cost and dangerous goods would require large quantities which would mean aging batteries in inventory. Are there any major retailers carrying Lithium?

To be clear, I would like Lithium to live up to the manufacturers specs however thus far all data suggests otherwise. It would be helpful if people addressed the main points re: Lithium.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mat jam

that is his way of saying there is no long term profit in it for him .
The other is he really doesn't want to learn about them.

Ah No. They are quite forthcoming in their explanations. I asked about both Firefly and Lithium. Their response re: Lithium if you read my earlier response correctly - their concerns mirror my concerns which are addressed in the video. Re: Firefly - they say shipping cost and dangerous goods would require large quantities which would mean aging batteries in inventory. Are there any major retailers carrying Lithium?

To be clear, I would like Lithium to live up to the manufacturers specs however thus far all data suggests otherwise. It would be helpful if people addressed the main points re: Lithium.[/QUOTE]

as a matter of fact yes there are many mainstream dealers that carry lifepo4 batteries .
Now what are your specific questions concerning them?

With the way I have my system setup I fully expect 10k cycles if not more from the cells I built my pack from.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by mat jam

And how long is your experience? In your need to justify your position you have again ignored the facts that their is a performance degradation dependent on usage. There is also the rushing a product to market before all the issues have been worked out.

After so many pages what is clear, is that their are a lot of unknowns about the actual claims of their use and life cycle. Yet there are regular reports of users batteries just dying. There are limitations of any chemistry and unless there has been a dramatic improvement (which would necessitate a name change) I will believe the guy in the video over a consumer trying to justify their purchase. There is a lot of marketing hype about this and only time will determine the truth. Let us know when you get to ten years.

I don't think I feel the need to justify a position. I was merely pointing out that you don't seem to understand much about this topic although you feel qualified to pontificate on that topic, which is fine, even though you do seem fairly committed to maintaining that lack of understanding, which is also just ducky with me.

And yes, there is performance degradation in all batteries based on usage. However, if you use LFP batteries based on what is already fully understood about them, that degradation is a fraction of LA chemistry. If you hook them up to the same charging regime as LA, then you can certainly ruin them, just as you can ruin an LA battery by not fully recharging it after draw down.

Regarding "claims", perhaps you can separate out the statements of people who have no direct experience with the technology in boats from those expressed by people who do. If you do that, then the only claims I will make are based on what I have experienced. 90 minutes of charging vs. 5+ hours. Stable and higher voltage which is easier on motors. No voltage sag. 18 months of more or less constant usage with zero decline in capacity. 1/3 the weight. Indifferent to PSOC. Much more expensive, but as I said, the benefits of fast recharge is worth it since I'm not wearing out a genset dribbling a few amps for hours trying to finish charging an LA chemistry battery so it doesn't die in 2 years.

As far as the expert in the video you referenced, he undoubtedly is, and when I need to send a battery to Mars, or design an electric car he would be a go-to guy. However, much of what he was saying and what the context is you didn't apparently understand. If you did, you'd be able to separate out comments relating to thousand cell batteries in Mars Rovers or a Prius and ones that have 4 cells. You'd be able to understand that far from being more dangerous than LA, they are less. But then again, since you have fixed ideas without benefit of understanding, perhaps you should wait until LFP shows up in WalMart before you invest in them. Safer that way, and requires no learning.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by mat jam

that is his way of saying there is no long term profit in it for him .
The other is he really doesn't want to learn about them.

Ah No. They are quite forthcoming in their explanations. I asked about both Firefly and Lithium. Their response re: Lithium if you read my earlier response correctly - their concerns mirror my concerns which are addressed in the video. Re: Firefly - they say shipping cost and dangerous goods would require large quantities which would mean aging batteries in inventory. Are there any major retailers carrying Lithium?

To be clear, I would like Lithium to live up to the manufacturers specs however thus far all data suggests otherwise. It would be helpful if people addressed the main points re: Lithium.[/QUOTE]

Just curious, but what do think makes carbon foam Firefly batteries "dangerous goods"?

[mat jam]

Just curious, but what do think makes carbon foam Firefly batteries "dangerous goods"?[/QUOTE]

I am only paraphrasing what I was told. I imagine their classification - being batteries - is as a dangerous good for shipping.

The info in the video are pretty accurate for the basis of all LifePO4 batteries. You seem to be skipping over any comments that do not agree with your position. A timeline of 18 months is not a long enough time for you to be singing the praise of these batteries. When you can make the claim in another 6-8 years then you will have my kudos. Otherwise they are just a novelty item with a large price tag that offer SOME benefits. And not cost effective over their use life cycle. MY LA batteries are nearing two years and there is no noticeable degradation. And they have been taken down below 50% numerous times in their first season and left with little charge in the off season until the next season. You see two can play this game. What we want is hard science or evidence, which the video provides, not consumer praise of a product that is in its infancy. You weaken your argument by glazing over major points and focusing on minor ones.

We want the whole truth and nothing but the truth and yes we can handle it.

[newhaul]

Where's mainesail when you need him?

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by mat jam

I am only paraphrasing what I was told. I imagine their classification - being batteries - is as a dangerous good for shipping.

The info in the video are pretty accurate for the basis of all LifePO4 batteries. You seem to be skipping over any comments that do not agree with your position. A timeline of 18 months is not a long enough time for you to be singing the praise of these batteries. When you can make the claim in another 6-8 years then you will have my kudos. Otherwise they are just a novelty item with a large price tag that offer SOME benefits. And not cost effective over their use life cycle. MY LA batteries are nearing two years and there is no noticeable degradation. And they have been taken down below 50% numerous times in their first season and left with little charge in the off season until the next season. You see two can play this game. What we want is hard science or evidence, which the video provides, not consumer praise of a product that is in its infancy. You weaken your argument by glazing over major points and focusing on minor ones.

We want the whole truth and nothing but the truth and yes we can handle it.

I wonder why you are posting in this thread? Perhaps you could explain just what you are after.

Trying to post that LA is somehow better than LiFePO4 in a LiFePO4 thread does not make sense to me. It is not a competition.

Please do read every post in this thread. The arguments you are making have been made.

[mat jam]

Originally Posted by evm1024

I wonder why you are posting in this thread? Perhaps you could explain just what you are after.

Trying to post that LA is somehow better than LiFePO4 in a LiFePO4 thread does not make sense to me. It is not a competition.

Please do read every post in this thread. The arguments you are making have been made.

Nobody is claiming LA are are better. Just pointing out the weakness of an argument claiming a proof of longevity with 18 months experience.

There should be objective reasonable verifiable facts presented. I have yet to hear any argument against the main points presented in the video - one being - that if you take your batteries below 50% SoC you can expect hundreds NOT thousands of cycles.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mat jam

Nobody is claiming LA are are better. Just pointing out the weakness of an argument claiming a proof of longevity with 18 months experience.

There should be objective reasonable verifiable facts presented. I have yet to hear any argument against the main points presented in the video - one being - that if you take your batteries below 50% SoC you can expect hundreds NOT thousands of cycles.

Mat you have no clue about the use of Lfp as house banks. The data in the video is not really applicable to our low C draw rates nor our low C charge rates .
The video bounces all over the place with the various chemistry of Lipo . And use in ev based systems with high C rates of charge and discharge.

There is a big difference between discharging at a .2C and charging the same as opposed to charging and discharging at 5C as mentioned in the video.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by mat jam

Nobody is claiming LA are are better. Just pointing out the weakness of an argument claiming a proof of longevity with 18 months experience.

There should be objective reasonable verifiable facts presented. I have yet to hear any argument against the main points presented in the video - one being - that if you take your batteries below 50% SoC you can expect hundreds NOT thousands of cycles.

I strongly suggest that you take the time to read every single post in this thread. All of your questions have been talked about at length. Everyone who has engaged you in conversation in this thread has read every post. Reading them is the least you could do in order to come up to speed.

You will find out that many have years of experience with their LiFePO4 banks and that there are some who have years of controlled capacity testing.

I think that reading the 6195 posts would simply be the courteous thing to do.