KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

[DDabs]

Interesting viewpoint CaptainRivet. Could you elaborate on how their BMS is "dumb as toast?"

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Make sure the BMS isn't common port. If it is when the BMS determines one cell is at it's maximum voltage the entire system will shut down - both charging and loads.

A good BMS is not common port - it treats loads and charging independently.

Most Daly BMS are common port.

This is False. Common port BMS's are able to shut down current in either direction-stopping charging while allowing the loads to remain on. AFAIK all Daly common port BMS's have this ability as well.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by DDabs

Interesting viewpoint CaptainRivet. Could you elaborate on how their BMS is "dumb as toast?"

BMS does basically only high and low voltage cut off and this very badly. 2nd its fully integrated with the battery so you cannot separate that and cannot bypass anything as all is in their one cable. Very handy for install but if something fails, which will 100% happen you are screwed.

Know several owners who have troubles with them, not the battery itself but the BMS+VE net integration. They use CATL cells. Actually ripping 320AH Victron out of my buddies boat and replacing them with 840AH Lishen cells with a Daly BMS (he wants it simple and got a spare one too) . And my own i have all victron and installing 840AH Lishen with an electrodacus BMS that manages then the bat and all the victron stuff.
Electrodacus doesn't shut off the current, it shuts off the source like the MPPT or your multiplus inverter and this long before its getting critical, its actually managing loads/charge and battery instead of only switching expensive high current relay when its critical

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by DDabs

After talking to a neighbor who turns out to be a Victron rep/electrician, I may have a good line on Victron stuff. This changes my whole gameplan, as I am able to fit Victron brand batteries into my budget. Although I won't get as many Ah as a CALB custom built unit, running Victron batteries alongside Victron everything else gives me peace of mind. What I have a question about is my new setup regarding the alternator:

-(2)Victron 12.8 200 Ah LifePO4 batteries
-(2)Victron VE.Bus BMS
-(1)Victron Multiplus 2000 Inverter/Charger
-(1)Victron Smartshunt
-(2)Victron MPPT 75/15 Charge Controllers
-(1)Victron Smart BatteryProtect

I am still debating whether or not to incorporate the Cerbo system from Victron, which allows me more control over the entire system, however it seems like I can do pretty much everything I need to from the smartphone and app. Cerbo is just another contact point to fail.

My question regarding the alternator: Can I still have one SLA battery as a starting battery, and then use the stock 80A alternator along with the Wakespeed regulator? This will allow me to use the stock alternator to charge the lithium, while being able to shut down/disconnect the alternator using the Wakespeed. Or if I use the Wakespeed regular do I still need an Orion B2B charger?

I am just curious about what spares you intend to carry?

Alternately, what is your plan for coping with failure of any of these items?

In my experience electronic bits, especially charging/storage/management bits, have a high likelihood of failing. And your proposal to generate the daily recharge with minimal solar and towed generator, backed up with stock Hitachi and Wakefield, (all good) but especially when you will most likely end up charging the Lithium with the alternator, which can be high stress for the alt, you would be wise to carry spares for all the bits or have a viable plan B. That is in addition to a in-depth understanding of how it all works and how to diagnose problems which start, "Daddy, the phone won't charge".

You are putting a lot of trust in everything going according to plan; it rarely does.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by wholybee

This is False. Common port BMS's are able to shut down current in either direction-stopping charging while allowing the loads to remain on. AFAIK all Daly common port BMS's have this ability as well.

I disagree, as does Will Prouse.

As long as the only negative goes through the BMS it cannot shut down charging without shutting down loads.

The way around this is to wire one either charging or loads around the BMS, bypassing it.

See below.

[Nic Homan]

We have recently had some battery issues caused by overheating. We are also looking to switch over to Lithium but different manufacturers are quoting different maximum
operation temperatures.So i would check this aspect out.
our emphasis is to be able produce energy from many different sources in case one or more fails on a long crossing. So we have installed solar panels , wind turbine and 12kva generator. We therefore use for electrical devices as we have loads of power. so we installed a 5kw inverter . it has been working well up until the heat wave in Greece when the batteries got too hot

[mitiempo]

From Will Prouse:

Quick update for advanced LiFePO4 raw cell systems using a Daly BMS:
On my website I recommended using a separate port BMS for over voltage protection for the mppt connection (if common port BMS is used, possibility of destroying mppt during low voltage disconnect).

Well yesterday, a viewer and I finally received our separate port BMS from Daly, and the amp rating was not as advertised on the listing. The separate port can only handle 10 amps!

Considering the likelihood of over voltage situation from most high quality mppt, and the chance of matched LiFePO4 cells going out of balance is rare (and BMS will correct for cell drift over time), and that LiFePO4 can be over charged to 4.2v per cell before electrolyte degradation... I would say its safe to connect mppt directly to the battery bank, and bypass the BMS entirely. We have been doing it this way for years, but people still want to use a BMS.

I would say use BMS for loads, and not for chargers. If you have mismatched cells, and some hit a higher voltage at high SOC quicker than others, drop the upper limit voltage of your controller. 14.0-14.2v is a safe charging voltage that can give full capacity with LiFePO4 12v.

I hope this helps! I bet most people building these systems will figure this out when they see this problem, but if you are a beginner trying to build an advanced level system, then this bit of information will be very useful.

[DDabs]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am just curious about what spares you intend to carry?

Alternately, what is your plan for coping with failure of any of these items?

In my experience electronic bits, especially charging/storage/management bits, have a high likelihood of failing. And your proposal to generate the daily recharge with minimal solar and towed generator, backed up with stock Hitachi and Wakefield, (all good) but especially when you will most likely end up charging the Lithium with the alternator, which can be high stress for the alt, you would be wise to carry spares for all the bits or have a viable plan B. That is in addition to a in-depth understanding of how it all works and how to diagnose problems which start, "Daddy, the phone won't charge".

You are putting a lot of trust in everything going according to plan; it rarely does.

Plenty of spares will be kept on board for functional equipment- I have been sailing many years on long passages and I know the rules.

In terms of backup power generation- I will most likely have a Honda 2000 and many lithium jump packs on board. However that's about it. I had a complete power failure on my last passage and had to sail 1200 miles without batteries and it wasn't that bad.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

I disagree, as does Will Prouse.

As long as the only negative goes through the BMS it cannot shut down charging without shutting down loads.

The way around this is to wire one either charging or loads around the BMS, bypassing it.

See below.

Mitiempo, I am just trying to get a handle on the BMS as shown in these diagrams (not knowing a lot about BMS)

• Do all connections with the batteries go through the BMS? (meaning the BMS is a high current device?) As in start current or windlass current?
• Or are the batteries still connected in series/parallel and BMS controls the externals somehow?
• Can BMS systems take one battery out of the system and still leave the others either charging or discharging?
• How about individual cells within a battery, are they monitored?
• Can the BMS act at a combiner (letting current flow from one battery to the next)?
• Does the BMS show condition (temp, current, etc) of each battery?
• If the BMS fails how do you put in a spare?
• What displays are needed to monitor these items?

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

BMS does basically only high and low voltage cut off and this very badly. 2nd its fully integrated with the battery so you cannot separate that and cannot bypass anything as all is in their one cable. Very handy for install but if something fails, which will 100% happen you are screwed.

Know several owners who have troubles with them, not the battery itself but the BMS+VE net integration. They use CATL cells. Actually ripping 320AH Victron out of my buddies boat and replacing them with 840AH Lishen cells with a Daly BMS (he wants it simple and got a spare one too) . And my own i have all victron and installing 840AH Lishen with an electrodacus BMS that manages then the bat and all the victron stuff.
Electrodacus doesn't shut off the current, it shuts off the source like the MPPT or your multiplus inverter and this long before its getting critical, its actually managing loads/charge and battery instead of only switching expensive high current relay when its critical

I agree with the above to a certain extent. The Electrodacus (and the Orion at a much higher cost) do not pass current and control each charge source and load separately.

By the way Victron uses Winston cells.

[DDabs]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Mitiempo, I am just trying to get a handle on the BMS as shown in these diagrams (not knowing a lot about BMS)

• Do all connections with the batteries go through the BMS? (meaning the BMS is a high current device?) As in start current or windlass current?
• Or are the batteries still connected in series/parallel and BMS controls the externals somehow?
• Can BMS systems take one battery out of the system and still leave the others either charging or discharging?
• How about individual cells within a battery, are they monitored?
• Can the BMS act at a combiner (letting current flow from one battery to the next)?
• Does the BMS show condition (temp, current, etc) of each battery?
• If the BMS fails how do you put in a spare?
• What displays are needed to monitor these items?

Plenty of information regarding BMS's elsewhere... getting a little off topic going down that rabbit hole

[DDabs]

In theory, if Victron uses Winston cells, wouldn't their 200ah batteries be technically "underrated" as people are proving to get more than 200ah out of their Winston cells?

Just a thought

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Mitiempo, I am just trying to get a handle on the BMS as shown in these diagrams (not knowing a lot about BMS)

• Do all connections with the batteries go through the BMS? (meaning the BMS is a high current device?) As in start current or windlass current?
• Or are the batteries still connected in series/parallel and BMS controls the externals somehow?
• Can BMS systems take one battery out of the system and still leave the others either charging or discharging?
• How about individual cells within a battery, are they monitored?
• Can the BMS act at a combiner (letting current flow from one battery to the next)?
• Does the BMS show condition (temp, current, etc) of each battery?
• If the BMS fails how do you put in a spare?
• What displays are needed to monitor these items?

It depends on the BMS. Most like many Daly, Overkill Solar and others route the main negative through the BMS. This limits current - you have to buy a BMS able to handle your loads. So, yes most BMS are high current devices.
Most BMS control cells individually in they they have passive balancing, bleeding current from high cells to match the lower cells. These BMS do not remove one battery (or cell) out of the system leaving the other charging or discharging. They are not combiners.

A good BMS will show - either on a screen or by an app - temp, current in or out, voltage, etc of each cell.

You can carry a spare BMS.

Some do have displays.

The Electrodacus is fairly unique. Its current is not limited as it doesn't pass the system current through it. It controls the bank through relays or directly as in the case of Victron components - virtually all Victron items - MPPT, Multiplus inverter/chargers, inverters, Orion DC-DC chargers and many of their AC chargers. It has a display that shows cell status - voltage, SOC, delta between cells, etc.

Here is a good description of the Electrodacus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCspxDLZR9U&t=2s

Here is a description of a Daly BMS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj7abaCrwvI

Here is an overview of the Overkill Solar BMS for comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCC_3LoLYuw&t=336s

I am using an Electrodacus on my house bank. I have an Overkill Solar BMS I will be using for a portable battery pack for an electric outboard on the dinghy.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by DDabs

In theory, if Victron uses Winston cells, wouldn't their 200ah batteries be technically "underrated" as people are proving to get more than 200ah out of their Winston cells?

Just a thought

Not sure. I have installed systems totally Victron but haven't tested for capacity.

[merrydolphin]

[QUOTE=DDabs;3446313]The 1000 ah bank wasn't really my design- it was what came with the boat when I bought it. My Caliber 40 using its 675 ah LA bank was more realistic for me because I cruised the Caribbean for 9 months using that setup paired with 420W of solar and it worked great. The major systems on that boat were the same as my new boat- just refrigeration and autopilot. The Caliber was using chartplotter and radar a lot more often in the Caribbean than I will be using during the transatlantic passage. I think 400 ah of lithium should be more than enough.

After the transatlantic, the plan is to take the boat to Italy where she will be berthed. No need for AC appliances for the family or guests. The boat was made to sail and so that is what she does! That is the spirit of the requirement for this battery build- the simpler the better for me.
David quote

I am doing a similar change from 4 T-105 Trojans to 2X 100 ah lithium. Because the lithium’s are so much more usable, I think the trade will be almost equal. I also have a diesel genny so can charge them up quite quickly to take care of what the 350 W of solar won’t cover. The Trojans were enough capacity for me before. But were such a pain to charge and then never got topped off, plus had to be carful to not discharge them below half. Over all have fairly low drain system. All led,s very small and low drain keel cooled Frige. Etc.