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Old 20-07-2021, 07:24   #31
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

IMO you are missing the biggest advantage of the lithium batteries. That is the ability to bulk charge almost to full. You don't have anywhere near enough charging ability to take advantage of the lithium bank. If I were in your situation I would look a the Firefly batteries. Lithium has some pretty big potential disadvantages that are more likely than not without and very good (expensive) BMS and must be designed into the boat as a complete system. Nothing about a good lithium system is cheap.

Google lithium and Nigel Calder and read some of what he has learned/recommends. Pacific Yacht Systems has a 2 hour talk on YouTube with Nigel that brings out some good points.

Good luck with your elec. upgrade. It s definitely a challenging and really important system on a boat.

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Old 20-07-2021, 07:58   #32
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

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Ddabs

I’m also trying to choose batteries. I was also leaning towards the SOK. What do you know about Lyth?
Lythbattery sells Calb and other brands of cells. Grade A matched cells. They are great to deal with. Rita Sun is the sales manager.

I have purchased and received 400 AH of Calb cells from them and am very pleased. I have 8 CA100 on the way for another project.

Pricing is excellent.

Highly recommended.
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Old 20-07-2021, 07:58   #33
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

with 300W of solar and a 400W wind generator, plus a towed waterpower generator, how will I not have enough power generation on an Atlantic crossing? Keep in mind i will also have the B2B charger on the alternator from the starting battery.

My batteries are going to have a fully customizable BMS, so what is the worry there?

As far as the shore power/inverter is concerned- it seems like the Victron Multiplus Compact 2000W/80A is an applicable unit. Does this sound like a good setup?
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Old 20-07-2021, 13:46   #34
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

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with 300W of solar and a 400W wind generator, plus a towed waterpower generator, how will I not have enough power generation on an Atlantic crossing? Keep in mind i will also have the B2B charger on the alternator from the starting battery.

My batteries are going to have a fully customizable BMS, so what is the worry there?

As far as the shore power/inverter is concerned- it seems like the Victron Multiplus Compact 2000W/80A is an applicable unit. Does this sound like a good setup?

Your charge capacity totally depends on the season and direction you sail relative to wind and sun.

300W of solar is not very much and you can count on 20-80% of that in amp hours per day.

400W wind generator will likely require 20+ knots of wind to generate anything meaningful - we have a Superwind 350 and while itís sometimes great, most of the time thereís not much coming from it. If your passage is mostly downwind donít count on wind.

I havenít used a towed water generator so canít comment on real world numbers. Take your average passage speed (and note that itís likely not anywhere close to hull speed) and see how much that will generate. Take at least one spare prop as apparently some fish like the look of a spinning prop.

With a BMS itís not just customising it but of course all the relays and contactors if needed and the other integration components to keep all your charge sources from frying the LFP battery. Always on with relatively dumb regulators such as the wind and water generators need particular attention.

That Multiplus unit is fine and charge capacity while on the low side will be fine. 2000W is t much from an inverter but plenty to run a TV or small electric kettle or toaster.

Regarding 712 vs SmartShunt, with the latter add a Cerbo and youíve got a more complete picture and controller for your system. The 712 and SmartShunt on their own show only very basic information. YMMV
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Old 20-07-2021, 14:14   #35
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

All my comments are from the prospective of education. For me and hopefully others.

From the research I have done it feels like lithium has to some extent gotten popular just like other fads do, its just the cool thing to do. While it has lots of benefits, like most things it is still a compromise. And this compromise seems to go beyond just the costs. What are you hoping to gain from using lithium? Their main advantages seem to be energy density, weight, ability to charge quickly (if you can), and the ability to serve large loads better.

You have a big boat so I am assuming space isn't a huge issue, weight either. You aren't asking for a large bank, you don't have super high output charge devices, you don't have demanding energy needs. To me the biggest concern with lithium other than cost is the design of the BMS to completely take the batteries off line if it senses something it doesn't like. Too low/high a voltage, charge voltage it doesn't like, bad BMS, etc and you are in the dark. You might not be able to "wake" the system back up. With out a back up bank you have no electronics, auto pilot, lights, etc. Not saying this is common or likely, but possible.

Maybe those that are smarter can help clarify. Of course "just because you want to" is an acceptable reason also. Lots of boat upgrades fall into this category.

Thanks to all for the mental exercise.

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Old 20-07-2021, 14:29   #36
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

Foster,

For me, I am at the point of replacing my batteries and rewiring the boat. Yes lithium has come a long way and I believe that now, especially with prices for batteries falling, putting together a lithium system isn't really a much bigger involvement from lead acid in terms of cost and involvement.

So rather than put golf cart batteries or 4d's back in my boat, I would much rather save myself the weight. My boat is 50' but she is still a modest 27k lbs. displacement and the spirit of my requirement is to strip her of all unnecessary weight. 500 lbs. in the starboard aft corner of the boat doesn't do me any justice, especially if I can only use half of it. That's my justification of going lithium.

As for the BMS- yes this is a crucial element and piece of the system, but really not that hard to keep an eye on and monitor. Without much creature comforts on board, monitoring all of my electricity is going to be one of my primary ways to spend my time, other than reading and sleeping. You mention not having a backup, but the boat will have a starting Lead acid battery, as well as multiple jump packs on board which weigh virtually nothing and can be used to jumpstart the motor.
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Old 20-07-2021, 15:31   #37
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

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Yes everything on board is 12V, except the water heater and air conditioning that use 110v. I am looking for a very simple shore power charger/inverter to have on the boat so that I can use an AC outlet at sea if I need to, this is the only thing I can think of where I would need to use the inverter at sea. Otherwise yes the entire boat will be 12V.

Ok, if it were it me, I would spend my money on a new engine mounted alternator to replace the existing unit. One with a very high duty cycle rating and in the 160 - 200 amp rating. (Balmer comes to mind but there are others) I would also want one with an external programmable (Lithium designed) voltage regulator that uses a shunt between the alternator and the house batteries.


You are probably in the same price range of a small gen set but I believe this will do much better job, be a LOT more reliable, simpler, and longer lasting. Those Li batteries can easily soak up the full output of this set up and have you back at 100% faster than about anything else can.
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Old 20-07-2021, 15:43   #38
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

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As for the BMS- yes this is a crucial element and piece of the system, but really not that hard to keep an eye on and monitor. Without much creature comforts on board, monitoring all of my electricity is going to be one of my primary ways to spend my time, other than reading and sleeping. You mention not having a backup, but the boat will have a starting Lead acid battery, as well as multiple jump packs on board which weigh virtually nothing and can be used to jumpstart the motor.
Make sure the BMS isn't common port. If it is when the BMS determines one cell is at it's maximum voltage the entire system will shut down - both charging and loads.

A good BMS is not common port - it treats loads and charging independently.

Most Daly BMS are common port.
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Old 20-07-2021, 16:02   #39
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

For adding a lot of solar cheap, consider cheap 100W rigid panels attached to the lifelines, propped up with dowels.

I have sailed about 15,000 ocean miles with panels zip tied to my lifelines without issues, and they work great. There is an advantage that shading or direction to the sun is an issue on a sailboat, and this ensures that I have unshaded panels directed to the sun all day. With 4 100W panels on my lifelines, and a couple on deck that I can move around or stow, I get about 200Ah per day, and peak at about 40A of charging midday.
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Old 20-07-2021, 16:34   #40
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

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Make sure the BMS isn't common port. If it is when the BMS determines one cell is at it's maximum voltage the entire system will shut down - both charging and loads.

A good BMS is not common port - it treats loads and charging independently.

Most Daly BMS are common port.
Thanks- definitely want that control.


Regarding alternators- I have had really bad experiences with two aftermarket alternators, one of which was a Balmar, on my 75 Yanmar turbo. Ever since going back to the 80 amp factory style Hitachi, i have had zero issues. I like the idea of taking a Honda 2000 genset along with me rather than going back to a bigger alternator.

Thanks again to everyone for contributing to this thread, I appreciate your input
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Old 21-07-2021, 12:28   #41
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

After talking to a neighbor who turns out to be a Victron rep/electrician, I may have a good line on Victron stuff. This changes my whole gameplan, as I am able to fit Victron brand batteries into my budget. Although I won't get as many Ah as a CALB custom built unit, running Victron batteries alongside Victron everything else gives me peace of mind. What I have a question about is my new setup regarding the alternator:

-(2)Victron 12.8 200 Ah LifePO4 batteries
-(2)Victron VE.Bus BMS
-(1)Victron Multiplus 2000 Inverter/Charger
-(1)Victron Smartshunt
-(2)Victron MPPT 75/15 Charge Controllers
-(1)Victron Smart BatteryProtect

I am still debating whether or not to incorporate the Cerbo system from Victron, which allows me more control over the entire system, however it seems like I can do pretty much everything I need to from the smartphone and app. Cerbo is just another contact point to fail.

My question regarding the alternator: Can I still have one SLA battery as a starting battery, and then use the stock 80A alternator along with the Wakespeed regulator? This will allow me to use the stock alternator to charge the lithium, while being able to shut down/disconnect the alternator using the Wakespeed. Or if I use the Wakespeed regular do I still need an Orion B2B charger?
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Old 21-07-2021, 12:42   #42
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

Your energy requirements sound quite similar to those we had with Entropy on our Atlantic crossing 2016/2017. In our case this was a 43 ft sloop with 425 Wp solar, a Balmar 160 A alternator and 400 Ah/13V LiFePO4.
24/7 loads during the crossing were navigation, auto pilot, refrigerator, liberal use of an electric kettle and some electronic gadgets.
During the Atlantic crossing from Europe to the Caribbean the solar yield was (expectedly) insufficient, requiring 1.5 engine hours per day on average.
The entire "pleasure time" in the caribbean was a blast, we never had to run the engine in order to charge batteries. Not once.

For the trip back we bought a Honda 1000, used it about 10 operation hours in total - and never used it again. We should not have bought it in the first place.
Instead, we now have added a hydro generator which will produce about 100 - 150 W when under way, this will add sufficient power for powering navigation and auto pilot.

The real advantage of LiFePO4 is that they absorb every Joule of energy you offer them, making perfect use of the all solar/wind/water power available. People who only know lead acid batteries typically do not get the brilliance of this property until they actually see it in action, hence some of the recommendations in this thread.
With lead acid battery the typical approach is to totally overprivision charging sources in order to compensate for efficiency losses and low charge acceptance rate. You don't need that with a LiFePO4 battery. (By the way, "sizing" charging sources to battery size is not a thing with a LiFePO4 bank, that's lead acid thinking.)

With a 400 Ah LiFePO4 bank, 300 Wp solar and a wind generator you should be all set for your trip. The tow generator is likely already overkill (either wind or tow generator should be enough). I'd recommend not to buy a Honda, you will likely not need it.

If you are interested in real world numbers from our 1 year trip you might be interested in https://www.entropypool.de/2015/05/0...and-use-cases/ with the 2018 retrospective at the bottom half of the page.
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Old 21-07-2021, 12:52   #43
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

I was waiting for someone like you to chime in, mbartosch. Awesome information.
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Old 21-07-2021, 12:57   #44
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
After talking to a neighbor who turns out to be a Victron rep/electrician, I may have a good line on Victron stuff. This changes my whole gameplan, as I am able to fit Victron brand batteries into my budget. Although I won't get as many Ah as a CALB custom built unit, running Victron batteries alongside Victron everything else gives me peace of mind. What I have a question about is my new setup regarding the alternator:

-(2)Victron 12.8 200 Ah LifePO4 batteries
-(2)Victron VE.Bus BMS
-(1)Victron Multiplus 2000 Inverter/Charger
-(1)Victron Smartshunt
-(2)Victron MPPT 75/15 Charge Controllers
-(1)Victron Smart BatteryProtect

I am still debating whether or not to incorporate the Cerbo system from Victron, which allows me more control over the entire system, however it seems like I can do pretty much everything I need to from the smartphone and app. Cerbo is just another contact point to fail.

My question regarding the alternator: Can I still have one SLA battery as a starting battery, and then use the stock 80A alternator along with the Wakespeed regulator? This will allow me to use the stock alternator to charge the lithium, while being able to shut down/disconnect the alternator using the Wakespeed. Or if I use the Wakespeed regular do I still need an Orion B2B charger?

Regarding the Cerbo, yes, an extra hardware component that can fail (just as the other 9 pieces of equipment youíre adding could fail - adding one more is not significantly increasing the risk of failure). Without the Cerbo you only have Victron Connect app to monitor and basic configure each component individually, except for the Multiplus, which you will need a directly cabled PC for the Configure application. Iím not familiar with the VE BMS so not sure how they are configured.

Adding a Cerbo to the system means youíve got a single control point and now have an network connection (can be just local if youíre beyond Internet connectivity) that you can access via WiFi to configure your Multiplus via VRM and control all the components using the Remote Console.

No problem charging the LFP using your alternator as long as the Wakefield uses an alternator temperature sense and manages belt load to prevent the alternator over heating. And if the Wakefield allows you to customise the lithium profile. You will need the BMS to turn off the Wakefield in the case of a high voltage warning. Our relay cuts the ignition wire to the regulator rather than the field - this ensures a normal shutdown and subsequent startup of the alternator, without the potential voltage spike of a field shut down. It does mess with the tachometer though.
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Old 23-07-2021, 04:19   #45
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Re: KISS Ocean Passage Lithium Setup

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Originally Posted by DDabs View Post
After talking to a neighbor who turns out to be a Victron rep/electrician, I may have a good line on Victron stuff. This changes my whole gameplan, as I am able to fit Victron brand batteries into my budget. Although I won't get as many Ah as a CALB custom built unit, running Victron batteries alongside Victron everything else gives me peace of mind. What I have a question about is my new setup regarding the alternator:

-(2)Victron 12.8 200 Ah LifePO4 batteries
-(2)Victron VE.Bus BMS
-(1)Victron Multiplus 2000 Inverter/Charger
-(1)Victron Smartshunt
-(2)Victron MPPT 75/15 Charge Controllers
-(1)Victron Smart BatteryProtect

I am still debating whether or not to incorporate the Cerbo system from Victron, which allows me more control over the entire system, however it seems like I can do pretty much everything I need to from the smartphone and app. Cerbo is just another contact point to fail.

My question regarding the alternator: Can I still have one SLA battery as a starting battery, and then use the stock 80A alternator along with the Wakespeed regulator? This will allow me to use the stock alternator to charge the lithium, while being able to shut down/disconnect the alternator using the Wakespeed. Or if I use the Wakespeed regular do I still need an Orion B2B charger?
Congrats on srcewing your build with Victron LifePo4 and their dumb as toast BMS....
Worst value for money you can buy.... I love Victron but that stuff is bs....
There is a reason Victron support the Electrodacus BMS even having their own BMS which was bought and not developed by them.
Less AH, you are already on the low side before...
You think piece of mind, well you just bought exactly the opposite...
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