Is Lithium Worth it?

[john manning]

Lithium has the advantages of being able to discharge further than lead-acid and still recover. As a consequence of that you do not need to carry the same Amp/Hr rating and this means less weight. Lithium claims to have a higher recharge cycle number but that depends upon the quality of the battery and its charger. Lithium usually requires a different charger to lead-acid. Lithium has a higher fire risk.

An alternative which costs more than standard lead-acid but significantly less than lithium is a battery type known as Carbon Foam or Lead Carbon. This is still lead acid but with one electrode made of porous carbon which eliminates sulphation of the battery plates. This allows the battery to discharge up to 80% without reducing cycle life. Less discharge increases cycle life.

Lead carbon is a cheaper option which provides many of the advantages of lithium, uses a standard charger and has a lower fire risk.

[Pegu Club]

Lithium Batteries are fine if you have the knowledge required to mind them, if your looking for simplicity, but with a greater capacity than FLA batteries go with firefly carbon foam batteries, they require less attention than most other options but with more available amps. The decision is yours, do your homework on total set up costs and maintenance requirements, then you will know what you want.

Fair winds,

[Ducatimark]

I tried something a little different that might be of interest to those thinking of LPF batteries. I studied for a couple of months on how things work and finally decided before I go for the $16K battery system overhaul (that seems to come up frequently in posts) I decided to go the manual route without a fully automated Battery Management System (BMS).

I have a 1985 48' Ketch with moderate needs. Not trying to run AC units or an electric motor; just water pump, LED lighting inside and out, fans, bilge pumps, and electronics. Refrigeration is Sea Frost Shoreside and Engine Compressors. Have a 5K genset and no solar panels. I only cruise locally at this time so no need just yet but will be working them into the equation. The boat originally had three 4D gel batteries.

For LPF batteries I did the unthinkable. I bought two Chinese made 200 AH batteries that look like 4D's but weigh less than half. I tossed the third gel and changed out for a Group 31 Marine Starting battery dedicated to start the 100 HP engine with 90 Amp alternator.

I rewired the existing two battery switches (each with 1-2-All) and connected the designated primary switch to the starting battery (#1) and position#2 to second battery switch. That second switch has one each LPF battery connected to the #1 and #2 positions. The "All" position connects to the first battery switch at the #2 position.

In addition, each LPF battery first runs to it's own two position switch (on/off) that allows me to completely isolate each LPF independently. That way I know for certain what is getting charged and discharged.

I monitor with a Balmar 2000 connected at each LPF battery. Those shunts also allow you to monitor the voltage on the AGM starting batteries for the engine and generator.

For 110V charger I use a Minn Kota four bank. This charges the two LPF batteries; and the engine and generator starter batteries. This unit seems bulletproof but has max charge of 15 amps for each bank. I went with that so as not to over-stress the Chinese LPFs, even though they can take a max charge of 60 Amps continuous. I also installed an easy to read manual switch near each LPF to turn off charging when I'm comfortable with the charge based on the Balmar readings.

The 90 amp alternator is connected at the primary battery switch at the #1 position. That way the alternator can always dump to the AGM. On the "All" position it also charges the LPF batteries. And I can shut either of them off from charging at any time with their separate switches. That way I can keep the LPFs from charging beyond 95% or discharging below about 25%. I'm comfortable with those numbers and I like keeping an eye on the data.

After two years my system seems to be working well. It's giving me good experience learning how LPFs work and keeping me focused on managing electricity usage. My total investment so far is the LPF batteries at about $1K each delivered, One AGM from Walmart, two Balmar 2000 kits, two on/off battery switches and some additional cabling and lugs.

Biggest advantages: Engine cranks like it's going to jump out of the boat now (with the AGM compared to the gels); the lights, pumps and all run full throttle no matter how much the level of charge on the LPFs; I don't worry about discharging the starter battery or any of the house LPFs as I can completely lock out any one battery (which I do). I like to keep one LPF as a spare once charged (alternating which one gets used), plus I also have the generator battery (an AGM Group 29) that I can use to start the engine if its battery ever fails.

Disadvantages? Forgetting to monitor the batteries and letting one go dead. I don't worry as much about max charging the LPFs because they do have a built in BMS (like a cell phone) that seems to work fine as long as you don't try to pump 100 amps in them at once. I guess I'm a worry wort. I'd rather keep checking my gauges and making sure things are working smoothly. For someone that doesn't even check the oil in the engine, this wouldn't be a good solution.

Long term would be to add solar power as mentioned. I believe between the genset, engine and solar I can get power back in the batteries fast enough to make the whole system work while cruising. Long term testing, record keeping and a little math will help me figure that out.

[Sailboatuser]

Absolutely yes. We started with wet, which was a disaster, progressed to AGMs which were much better compared to wet, and finally "evolved" to Lithium (a lot of money wasted in the process).

But remember to change the charging system to one designed for it. Unless your batteries come with built-in battery management system which is designed for "drop-in" replacement of AGMs.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

CatNewBee...

I remember from previous conversations with you that you put something like $30,000 into your electrical system.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2640571

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Oh well, the money...

5 x BenQ Panels each 306 € =1530 €
Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/100-Tr =809€
stainless steel frame inclusive labour =2000€
flexible wires and cable shoes etc. =500€
breaker, diodes, electronics stuff, =100€
LFP cells LYP1000AHC 4x1240€ =4960 €
massive copper rail 2m =50€
4x latching relay 500A 12V ML-RBS =600 €
REC Active BMS mit Display, Kabel, Sensor=545 €
other material (stainless steel screws, washers, shrink tube etc. =150€
Victron Quattro 12/5000/220-100/100 =3082€
Victron BMV-712=214€
Victron MK3 USB Interface =71€

so inclusive the oven and the induction cooktop it was an investment of round about 16000€.

All parts were bought online; research, engineering and installation all DIY except for the stainless steel frame for the panels.

All prices incl. 19% VAT

Not includet is the price of the vessel of course [emoji56].

It was not that expensive, it's a lot of high-end electronics.

CatNewBee's costs and the parts used are detailed on page 2 of his thread (which is linked in his signature) and which I have quoted above.

When making comparisons it should also be noted that this cost is for a setup that can run an entire Lagoon 400S2, including a fully electric galley, washing machine, normal home comforts, etc, as well as even some air conditioning use, almost totally from solar and batteries.

Looking at it from that point of view it could be considered somewhat reasonable actually, for what the setup provides in return.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by rykie

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

Enough input. What are YOU going to do?

[Almi]

We absolutely love our lithium winston setup... We bought our winston batteries formEV power in europe..but sinceyou are in south africa look up blue nova..... they use winston batteries, but sets it up pretty nicely...helping you manage/ maintain your battery bank much easier. ..

SEee Sailing Lady Africa ( see you tube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC2...6_jwo7CRjKNEyw)
they are currently at the V&A waterfront in South africa, and they have got a battery bank in from Blue Nova...

Blue Nova:.https://www.bluenova.co.za/

in my opinion and after sailing from the Med to New zealand....it is 100% worth it:-)

Enjoy

[gscriba]

We switched to LFP about 9 months ago and previous to that used FLA and AGM on sail boats in the 41 to 52 foot range. I am not an engineer, nor do I have any formal education that revolves around anything electrical. I don't have deep pockets. What I do have is an interest in learning and doing. After many, MANY hours of reading, learning and asking questions; and with the help so kindly shared by experts primarily on this forum, I decided to convert to LFP. I will not go back. Ever.

If you have spent any time reading and learning, you already know the many advantages. From my experience, the disadvantages of a LFP system "may" be twofold, though others will have you believe otherwise. Both disadvantages can be avoided, but will require sacrifice in the process.

1. Complexity...with increased storage comes the increased need to produce.
The increased energy available leads to additional creature comforts/conveniences, which in turn naturally leads to...the greater need to produce. You still need to balance the equation.
2. Expense...relates to #1.

I overcame both of the above, the sacrifice being my time and the effort to learn. The great news is you can as well if you chose. And once/if you do, you will not go back.

If you are not interested in spending the time and effort to diy, be prepared to spend a lot more $. If you have the cash, great! Once again, no deep pockets here and so if I was not interested in the project, I would not have converted to LFP.

We (family of four) are 100% solar with Winston LFP. We have a 52' mono hull and have been without shore power, without generator and without alternator power source for almost 3 months in the SF bay area. We enjoy using the electric water kettle, microwave, TV, computers, electric blankets (What??? Give me a break...it gets chilly on the Bay!) as well as our hot water heater (once or twice a day for piping hot water to wash dishes or shower if we like).

It has been truly awesome. Special shout out again to CNB and Andy.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Enough input. What are YOU going to do?

Give him a chance to kick the tires!!!

[Kiwi Dave]

Hi all
I replaced 6 x 6V flooded LAs 4 1/2 yrs ago with 400 AH of CALB LiFePO4 with an Orion Junior BMS. Yes extensive wiring changes, reprogramming the Solar charging regulator, Externally regulated the Alternators with Balmar units, Dc-DC chargers for the AGM starting batteries. Boat is never plugged into shore power.
Only problem was due to minor corrosion on the battery connections - quick clean & all is well again.
I love it.

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

It is interesting times on the battery front and new technologies.

www.gwstore.co.za sells Omnipower batteries. One that caught my eye was for boaters with 48v bowthruster. They sell variants of 480ah 48v AGM combo one piece battery, as well as the same single 24v batteries. All Good for solar charging. This eliminates two x 24v or 2x12v setups. Less wire and less connections = safer.

I am still advancing my previous post where affordable Supercapacitor batteries are promoted. Comments on that was that the lower density and higher output of SC-batteries may not be ideal for boats. It seems as if the technology and sale of SC are coupled with LiFePo4 batteries, given one advantage of super quick charge via solar etc, but also added lightweight and allows for other low output needs.
What is amazing is the enormous storage gain. 1kw, 2kw, 3,5kw, 7,2kw etc (from $950 - $6800) which is amazing.

Add to this Graphene and Graphene Supercapacitor batteries. The Graphene battery can take a dead short between its poles - it will fry the wire, but the battery remains 100% intact and safe !! I presume Graphene is non-combustable, making it as safe as one can get.

Watch the youtube video
https://youtu.be/dnE1nO6o-do and witness the test.

In short, the technology is out there. Many doomsayers and safety conscious people abounds, who contributes as well, but we need pioneers and test pilots who will and are bold in amidst of potential failure, do the test and go the extra mile, for others to follow.

I repeat that this is exciting times. Field applications needed to report on facts versus fiction, joys /comforts/safety of technology versus the potential risks and their likelihood.

We must admit: just owning a boat and be on tha water, must increase your chances of sinking your boat or drowning 100% more than land-bound people, yet we embrace the dangers nevertheless.

Will you be that pioneer?

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by Frode

Whatever it is you put idiots in charge of will soon have its value reduced to nothing, or worse.

LiFePO4 batteries are not "easy to break", any more than a $1M yacht is easy to break, if you run it at full speed up on a reef. Give them what they want, and they're perfectly happy. They're not finicky at all.

I'm four years into my setup with CALB 180 cells. They indicate no loss of capacity (900 AH) so far, and I often charge them to 14V. I'm a live-aboard, and rely on solar for charging (1600W). I have no charge controller, per se, just a micro-processor controlled relay that cuts in and out based on cell/battery voltages. I tend to run them at long, deep cycles, very close to 100%. At times, I run well over a week before starting another charge cycle.

Excellent answers from others on how you should determine the value for you. For me, FLAs would have not been worth it, even if I got the batteries for free, with free replacements every two years. Rarely a day goes by when I don't recount my fortune for having decided on LFPs (not just when I need to pull 300 amps to feed the inverters, without drama).

Can you, or do you run Airconditioner from the batteries? If so: how many and /or BTU's.?

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

$3x Gels, drop ins maybe?

There are a number of CF members, including me, that have recently got LFP 'EVE' 280 AH cells around $100ea. 4 reqd for 12v. You didnt mention but I assume 12v?

So double ths to 8 cells instead giving you 12v at 560 AH.

Shipping from China, around $300.

A BMS $100- 150.

Yes you are going to have to learn about them. But IMHO its different but not really more learning reqd as that for Gels or other types. Most people unwittingly kill their batteries because they havent put the time into learning how to best look after them.

Your electrical setup may need some upgrading depending on what you have already. Like programable chargers.

The good thing is there is a lot if good info from guys that have gone before us, so we dont need to reinvent the wheel.

[LargeMarge]

Excellent question!

For us, another factor enters the equation of charge/discharge vs number of cycles compared to AGM:
* extinguishing a self-started self-perpetuating unstoppable fire in lithium-based batteries.

My chum Tim owns a vehicle tow company in Eugene Oregon.
He lost a slide-back tow-truck after a hybrid vehicle caught fire a second time AFTER the fire-fighters totally extinguished the burning vehicle... then AFTER fire-fighters completely extinguished the combined fire started by the 'non-burning' lithium pack, the two burned a THIRD TIME at the tow-company storage yard.

Prior to investing, we are waiting for the lithium battery industry to mature.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by wingssail

CatNewBee, I don't think any knowledgeable boater would deny the advantages of a fully developed Lithium based system with a large solar array and all the accoutrements. And for someone who wants or needs an all electric boat (excepting motors) there is probably no other way to go.

But it's way overkill for a 48 foot mono cruising boat which needs probably 200Ah per day. You are getting six times as much usable power as he needs.

I remember from previous conversations with you that you put something like $30,000 into your electrical system. Even a much smaller capacity system will probably cost him $3000 for batteries and there are other costs, plus the time to design the system, acquire it, and install it. He's looking at $5000 or so and a couple of months, probably to do it. Then he's to take off on a 5000 mile sail to the Caribbean? Even if he gets it for a total of $2000 that's still four ties the cost of a minimal FLA system which could provide 200ah per day.

Your comparison to AGM is not the whole picture, since there are much cheaper FLA's than AGM.

Look, if the OP has the available wealth and time and on-board needs to go the route that you did, great. But it might not be the correct answer for everyone else.

Well, it was 15k$ for the whole refit including inverter and galley appliances, solar arch, solar controller etc. , and the battery part was about 5k plus maybe 1k for BMS, solenoids, new cables and battery monitor.

But I am not saying one size fits all. For a smaller boat or energy demand you can make a smaller system.

The cells are sold directly from HK for 1US$ per Ah per cell plus shipping, so a 200Ah Winston would be 800US$ + shipping and you would have 240Ah USABLE capacity at 0.3C continous discharge (70A). With FLA/GEL/AGM/SMF CaCa batteries you would need a capacity of 500Ah and it would probably cost you the same for quality batteries.

I consider Winston cells as quality cells and not no-name stuff, so I expect for comparison Excide, Optima, Firefly or similar quality brand manufacturers.

A quality cells LFP setup can be as cheap as a quality Lead acid battery setup, but will deliver much better results.