Is Lithium Worth it?

[kmacdonald]

It depends.

[sailorboy1]

Today I have read 2 different stories of people's $5k lithium batteries drying before the 2 year point.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

This is a great bottom line summary of the advantages and issues of Lithium.

I'd like to add my perspective as a full time cruiser who lives on the hook most of the time. I shied away from spending so much on Lithium and instead got high quality AGMs from Mastervolt. My electrical and charging system was professionally upgraded and installed by a master boat electrician who I trust.

2 years later I regret getting AGms:

- Takes forever to charge via generator and solar/wind

- Charging performance deteriorates significantly if you don't equalize or "balance" the batteries regularly (at least weekly), which is even more generator time.

- Low voltage at 80% or so, which means I can't discharge the batteries to 50-60% before charging as I should be able to. Did all the tests and they are not defective.

So before the end of this year I'm upgrading to Lithium and look forward to efficient charging and discharging, the lack of which is the bane of my day to day existence right now. I could live with them to the end of their life, but just don't want to.

Goes to show that there is a difference between the IDEA and the REALITY of most things.

The Idea of AGMs for a cruiser as the best and most affordable option below Lithium just doesn't match my reality of real world experience using them. The higher initial expense of Lithium doesn't seem so daunting now and worth it to me.

I looked into AGM batteries and your experience pretty much matched what I found in my research.

The supposed advantage in charging is only when the batteries are at a low SoC but once they reach more or less 80-85% the charge acceptance rate drops down to a level comparable to standard FLA batteries. But due to the need for AGMs to be fully charged on a regular basis then you are faced with really long charge times from engine or gennie if you're off grid can can't plug into shore power.

Only in a few special applications do I see AGMs as worth the extra investment. If I upgrade from plain, vanilla golf cart batteries I'll skip AGM and go to LiFePO.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

I would up your bank size to 500Ahr or so usable: 1,000Ahr-Lead acid or 700Ahr LiFePo

While Lithium is no longer cutting edge, in the marine market I don't see it being particularly mature either, batteries need BMSs to last and these are subject to degradation in the marine environment. In 5-10yr I think they will be cheaper and more reliable. If I had a year or so to install and learn the foibles of a lithium system before going offshore I would consider it because the long term costs are in their favor.

While the wind and solar regulators have settings for Lithium, does your alternator regulator? You could cook your alternator if it isn't regulated properly for lithium. You need to look into this too if you pursue lithium.

For a near-term voyage I would stick with what is already on the boat. The existing systems work and you have experience using and maintaining them. If you get a new system it's one more thing to learn to use and maintain in the middle of heading offshore which a time and attention drain to begin with.

[sailorboy1]

Far as I am convinced the only "advantage" of regular AGMs and GELs is that you don't have to water them. Everything else is marketing hocus pocus.


Of course once people spend money on hocus pocus it is a real world truth till death do they part.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Far as I am convinced the only "advantage" of regular AGMs and GELs is that you don't have to water them. Everything else is marketing hocus pocus.


Of course once people spend money on hocus pocus it is a real world truth till death do they part.

I agree and I'll add they are more fragile than FLA 6V trojans or equivalent to external problems.

Perfect world..lol...I've had 3 solar regulators and a Balmar reg fail over the last 10 years, all ended up putting 15v + into my batteries, the Trojans just shrug that off, where I'm not sure Gel & AGM get away with it.

For me personally I'd go 6V FLA, Firefly or Lifepo, it would be full agricultural rock solid basic lead acid or high tech, not the in between.

BTW ,I've seen 3 different boats now with failed Lifepo therefore they arent set and forget, those failures are often expensive failures.

The other interesting thing to me is the people I personally know that have Lifepo dont have much knowledge regarding batteries....just a observation I've made AND of course this isnt directed at people on this forum who I dont know.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Far as I am convinced the only "advantage" of regular AGMs and GELs is that you don't have to water them. Everything else is marketing hocus pocus.


Of course once people spend money on hocus pocus it is a real world truth till death do they part.

Yep. Misery seeks company so they say.

I think lithium is great for those that cruise extensively or live aboard at anchor and have the aptitude. If you have to pay someone to install your batteries, they aren't for you. You really have to do the research to know where you fit in.

[GRIT]

We have 720 AH of CALB LIFEPO4.

We've been happy with them, after 12 months full time use. We normally only charge to 13.6v (which is about 85% charge), and have plenty of charge to run our boat. We are quite reliant on our batteries, with electric winches, electric davits, 3000kva inverter, watermaker, and such. We tend to use between 100 and 150 AH a day (24 hours).

Charging: We are 100% reliant on solar, for charging. We have one engine with an alternator installed, segregated from the electrical system with a battery switch, so there's no output (or input) at all. That alternator is for emergency use, and one day I'll be glad I have it, but so far we've only tested twice. It puts out 90 amps, and quickly lowers to about 60 amps. It's running with the built-in regulator. I don't plan on spending money on a 3 stage regulator, since this alternator just collects dust.

We have 1100W solar; two banks of 550w, running through two Victron 100/50 regulators. We use a REC BMS, and blue sea solenoids/switches.

We normally charge to 13.6, but will up the voltage to 13.8 with a 13.3-13.6 float once in a while, just so they "remember" where "full" charge should be.

I think Lithium is well worth the effort, and money, if you're going to keep the boat a while, or are simply not into battery maintenance, like watering...

They're not quite maintenance free, I do check the connections on occasion, and often play with the charger settings, but that's more out of interest than need.

Cheers, and good luck.
Paul.

PS, I agree with KMacdonald, in the post before this one.

[Peeew]

When I looked at my needs it seemed that the lithium’s that people are now using are safe but need a good bit of knowledge to care for, assemble, etc and seemed like a specialist approach for an electric expert or hobbyist. What I needed was to avoid shore power and top up charges for months at a time and enough usable capacity to need my larger needs. I decided on firefly batteries. I think that there are now other brands of carbon foam batteries available. For me these were drop in replacement and a few charger adjustments. They are very tolerant of abuse and accept a very fast charge. I think this is an option worth considering if they are available in your area. I don’t think there are any really long term reports yet but the results so far impress me.

[Reefmagnet]

^^ That's the little known secret to prevent damaging LFP batteries. Don't try and charge them to 100%. The target is 90%. LFP are happiest at around half charge. Even at 90%, the 80% discharge can still be pushed as LFP will safely discharge to 10% capacity.


I went for LFP batteries because we do have heavy electrical loads on our boat, limited battery space and charging LA batteries takes far too long with limited charging resources due to charge acceptance tapering off. LFP's are also much more efficient at charging than LA. I chose the CALB even though bulkier than modern prismatics because I just felt that they are cased better for a life in a marine environment. I already had LFP compatible MPPT and mains chargers and opted for a DC-DC charger on the standard alternator.



The biggest issue for me is the lack of a decent BMS designed for marine use on small vessels. There are lots of options available on the market, but nothing (imo) that directly addresses this niche.

[Flod]

I just finished my second season with lifepo4. It’s the best investment I have made in the boat over the 7 seasons I have owned it. It’s really a pleasure to have “unlimited” power and if you want to it’s really a install and forget kind of thing. I especially like that the batteries now are like the fuel tank I.e. if you take out 10 Ah and then let the solar charge 10A for an hour you are back to where you started. My experience with conventional batteries is that if you take out a 10A load for an hour the batteries loses more than that and if you have a 10 A solar charge coming in they will only accept part of it and this results in a downward spiral. My advice is to go for lithium. You won’t look back. There are enough of threads and info on this forum to guide you and to manage the installation

[ThereAndBack]

I installed Lifepo4 batteries. Personally I have zero regrets. I was a long time user of golfcart 6volt batteries. The lithium lifepo4 are worlds better.

People on these forums have largely complicated the matter of "lithium" batteries to the point that a person with casual understanding, dipping their toe into research can be scared off very easily.

I bought battleborn batteries, dropped them in to replace my golf carts for the house bank. I installed a DC-DC charger from the start bank (FLA) to the house bank (alternator wired to starter battery). This is literally the only change I made. I have solar, wind, and shore charger. Everything has been working brilliantly for 2 years. It really was that simple. Don't let the hand wringers fool you. These batteries came with a 10 year warranty. I don't fear "killing them".

If you plan to keep a boat for a while or liveaboard at anchor (as I do), they're a game changer in terms of performance.

[Frode]

Originally Posted by rmhutch59

Lithium are easy to break, and require a higher level of user knowledge to prevent damage. We installed $16,000 dollars worth in an application 6 months later they were toast.

Whatever it is you put idiots in charge of will soon have its value reduced to nothing, or worse.

LiFePO4 batteries are not "easy to break", any more than a $1M yacht is easy to break, if you run it at full speed up on a reef. Give them what they want, and they're perfectly happy. They're not finicky at all.

I'm four years into my setup with CALB 180 cells. They indicate no loss of capacity (900 AH) so far, and I often charge them to 14V. I'm a live-aboard, and rely on solar for charging (1600W). I have no charge controller, per se, just a micro-processor controlled relay that cuts in and out based on cell/battery voltages. I tend to run them at long, deep cycles, very close to 100%. At times, I run well over a week before starting another charge cycle.

Excellent answers from others on how you should determine the value for you. For me, FLAs would have not been worth it, even if I got the batteries for free, with free replacements every two years. Rarely a day goes by when I don't recount my fortune for having decided on LFPs (not just when I need to pull 300 amps to feed the inverters, without drama).

[zboss]

If you are really concerned that you don't have a full understanding of charging an expensive lithium ion bank then start with a small lithium ion bank - not a $16K lithium ion bank. If the average (and I don't know what the average is so I am guessing) lead acid bank is 300 Ah usable then get 160 Ah of usable lithium and learn how to work the system... get it dialed in and then buy up after you are satisfied.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by zboss

If you are really concerned that you don't have a full understanding of charging an expensive lithium ion bank then start with a small lithium ion bank - not a $16K lithium ion bank. If the average (and I don't know what the average is so I am guessing) lead acid bank is 300 Ah usable then get 160 Ah of usable lithium and learn how to work the system... get it dialed in and then buy up after you are satisfied.

Just to clarify, lithium ion = bad and lithium iron phosphate = good.


There is a HUGE difference between the two.