Diagram of my proposed upgrade with lithium house and AGM starter battery

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CruiserAD

I plan a similar setup on my catamaran, but I'm going to use a Sterling Pro-Split with TWO alternator inputs, so I only need one B2B charger charging the Starter Battery and the LFP house bank. See that attachments for details.

Hi,
just some comments and suggestions to your setup:


instead of a sterling B2b (which a) is wasting a lot energy and B) doesn't solve all your problems when the LFP battery protection kicks in and cuts alternator or your windgen under load which will kill their diodes immediatly through the massive ampere spike caused by the cut off.

i suggest one of the 2 following:
best solution: get 2 Balmar alternators with external regulator (or any other brand that can switch off the magnetic field under load) which you can then both connect directly to the bus bars plus and minus of the house bank.
when LFP protection kicks in the balmar can cut the magnetic field of the alternator so it doesn't deliver any power anymore but still spins. both regulator will also automatically sort out the max loading ampere, if one or both is running.

to charge the starter connect a small DC to DC charger for each starter battery. I have for each starter battery a small 50W flexible solar panel connected which always tops up the starter, so its nearly full all the time and DC to DC just kicks in after week of coulds or heavy use of the starter.
for the windgen you use the Victron Orion smart charger from the alternative below.

alternative:
victron has a new smart DC to DC charger but they are only avaliable in 30A Version. But you can parallel them up 6 to match the current charge of your alternator. you have to measure the real max output current of your alternator as a standard 80A is normally delivering max 40-50A (if a balmar is rated 80A it delievrs 80A!) so 2 Orions in parallel are enough per alternator. Means for 2 80A alternators you need 2 Orions each, in total 4. your windgen reacts the same as the alternator so you need a 5th one or you connect it to one of orions in parallel but you can only run the windgen when this engines is off.

https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-...orion-tr-smart
The huge attvantage of the orion is that it can handle different battery chemistries in 2 different banks in parallel and switches instantly between them. They are actually devloped for your setup a lead/AGM starter and Lithium housebank. So they charge with a small current your starter to top it up (programmable if prio charge over house or not) and simultanious your Lithium with max current possible. If LFP is full the orion switches instanly purely to the lead/AGM starter to create a load so there is no cut off spike which kills the diodes.


Lifepo batteries:
The victron Lifepo are the worst value for money and the "advantage" of integrating their own BMS is actually none. not goog quality too.

If you want super simple drop ins I suggest the battleborn and their integrated BMS is sorting everything out for you automatically.

otherwise I suggest get the bare cells and a BMS seperatly as in 95% the cases not the cells break but the cheap BMS that the dropin batteries integrated which you cannot replace seperatly (battleborn is an excemption but let you pay for this a steep premium)
best bare cells you can get are winstons, which cost 1$ each 1AH here in the forum over Julia (search winston cells and you find the thread). Huge advantage 5000cycles, capacity advertised is underrated (friend has 700AH cells and they are in fact 850AH due to capacity tests) and you can get up 1000AH in one cell that means you need 4x 1000AH cell to create a 12V 1000AH bank, or 4x400AH for 12V/400AH or 4x 700AH=12V/700AH. easy to handle for each BMS, no intercharge between cells as with multiple in series/parallel connection and also easy to put togehter. If you do your engine maintenace yourself you can do this.
cheap and good cells are the LISHEN 272AH or EVE 280AH (Lishen preffered), see comment above from DIYsolarforum. 12 cells make a 12V 810/840AH bank for around 1500$ shipped. good AGMS with this capacity cost nearly the same. Suggest to use 2 or 3 daly BMS 60AH connected in parallel to the whole bank and connect the under/overvoltage protection via a 300AH cut off relay. First like this each BMS sees a very small current, so its lifespan is drastically improved and 2nd if one BMS fails the other is cutting it off via the relay. the 60A daly are under 60$ each and relaible.
Additionally a BMV712 Victron Battery monitor which also acts as over/undervoltage protection cut off to the same relay.

multiplus 2000VA:

its not 2000W, only 2000VA. If you look at the specs with 40degrees celcius this only delivers 1300W continous and 40 you have very quick in the tropics or in summer everywhere in the mediterian deep down in the locker where the multiplus is installed. 2nd you wanna do induction cooking and every portable (like the often used ikea one) that makes sense or readly marine use avaliable have a 1600W or 2000W BUT their CosPi is very hard on the inverter and even a 2200W shuts off when used on highest level.

So I would highly recommend the Multiplus 12V/3000VA (with 40 degrees in can do 2200W continously) which is not much more expensive and in the same case as the 2000VA. or if you seriously thinking about a gas free galley take the 12V/5000VA right away. one induction plate plus a connvection oven (mostly a combination of Microwave, convection and sometime steamer) uses togehter around 3000W or 2 burners simultanouesly 2500-3000W. using the inverter often on the limit reduces his lifespan and relaiblitiy significantly. your lithium can handle this load and if you do cook you will use them often togehter. Also you wanna connect your hot water boiler to the inverter and when solar charged your batteries to 95% at noon then make hot water with the excess energy of the solar panel, classic heating element has 750 or 1200W. Well and a washing machine on 60 degrees or 90 will run in parallel. or suddenly running in parallel you just cook some water for your tea/use the nespresso machine and bang fuse is off or inverter overload shuts it off. And not only the wife doesn't always think about power consumption, believe me you too...as soon as you have it you use it Multiplus or better quattro: you wanna use a honda portable as backup genny instead of the engine, very good idea and I do this too. With this setup I recommend to get the quattro because you can and will run small dimensioned shorepower (typically 6-8A max often instable in remote locations) and the genny together or more likely if you take the 3000VA Quattro you will later add a 1200W inverter and the quattro can then put them togehter as a 4200VA (which is 3500 continous) inverter with the power assist function and a genny as shorepower replacement or add on to shore power while running both inverters in parallel. And again you will do, even if you think you won't.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CruiserAD

I plan a similar setup on my catamaran, but I'm going to use a Sterling Pro-Split with TWO alternator inputs, so I only need one B2B charger charging the Starter Battery and the LFP house bank. See that attachments for details.

We had the Sterling ProSplit R 2-134 https://sterling-power.com/products/...iant=882767643 and it was a piece of crap - always needing to be reset and throwing errors. Pulling it out was the best thing we did.

Instead, we connect the two alternator outputs to the house bank charging bus via a pair of Mastervolt Batterymates (one for each side). Those keep their respective start battery charged and send the majority of the charge to the house bank. Once we switch to Lithium house bank we’ll get rid of the Batterymates and install a pair of Balmar Duochargers to charge the start batteries from the house bank. The alternators will charge the house bank only.

[fxykty]

Regarding wind generator, its behaviour when the charge is cut off depends on its regulator. The SCR 12 regulator for our Superwind 350 wind generator will divert to the load resistor when it can no longer feed current (at a constant voltage - that has to be set lower than is normal for a lead acid bank) to the battery output connection.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We had the Sterling ProSplit R 2-134 https://sterling-power.com/products/...iant=882767643 and it was a piece of crap - always needing to be reset and throwing errors. Pulling it out was the best thing we did.

Instead, we connect the two alternator outputs to the house bank charging bus via a pair of Mastervolt Batterymates (one for each side). Those keep their respective start battery charged and send the majority of the charge to the house bank. Once we switch to Lithium house bank we’ll get rid of the Batterymates and install a pair of Balmar Duochargers to charge the start batteries from the house bank. The alternators will charge the house bank only.

The Balmar Duocharger and Victron Orion Smart Charger from the comment above have the same functionality. But the Orion has several advantages over the Balmar:
A) up to 6 Orion can be paralleled to get the max charge off your alternator (6x30A=180A from one alternator) delivers while balmar is limited to 30A. It doesn't stand in the description of the balmar what happens if the alternator throws eg 80A at it. As also mentioned above measure the max current your alternator really delivers, not its rating.
B) orion has more battery parameters and wider range to program then the Balmar, eg if you wanna use LTO for your starter or/and house. Eg Down to 9V and up to 17V while Balmar 10.5 to 16V in 12V mode which is not enough for LTO.
C) you can program the Orion via BT smartphone/tablet while Balmar not
D) if you have already have victron multiplus or Quattro, Victron Battery Monitor BMV 712, victron smart sense temp sensor on the battery and Victron MPPT Solar charge controller the Orion talks to the others via BT VE-Bus, create a network and can much more precise control, protect and charge your batteries. Programming is super easy, you just pair them in the victron app and they communicate automatically. Like this you also have already all functions of a BMS integrated in your system with load control, under-, overvoltage control, high/low temp controll, charge profile parameters and can effectively charge bare lithium cells directly without its own BMS.

Yes superwind is the only windgen controller that has this build in function for load cut off. All others don't like the silentwind or D400. Yes they have also over and undervoltage cut off adjustable via programming but this is only steering/controlling the build in solar charger controller, not the wind gen controller part...not standing in the manual. Guess how i figured that out....
Pay attention:
And if you have a silentwind controler with the MPPT solar controller build in then the solar part interfere with the Victron MPPT smart controler and the overvoltage cut off the silentwind is fouled and only cuts of 1,5V higher, i was cooking my lead acid starter with 16V absorption while programmed was 14.4V. The Victron BMv 712 was showing overvolt alarm and the MPPT controller via Battery temp sense spikes of 21V on the battery therminals... Disconnected solar part of silentwind and all is running over 3 Victron MPPT now.now it works correctly. Your LFP bank would be dead and maybe even thermal runoff, i just had to fill up a lot water in the lead battery.

[Deividas]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Yes superwind is the only windgen controller that has this build in function for load cut off. All others don't like the silentwind or D400.

I have an old Aerogen 4 wind generator that has a resistor that is activated in case voltage reaches 14,2V and the regulator cuts off charging.

I'm going to use a Victron Orion-Tr Smart B2B charger to separate starter and house batteries.
The question is - what is the best option to connect wind gen - to the starter battery (before the B2B charger) or directly to LifePo4 battery?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Deividas

I have an old Aerogen 4 wind generator that has a resistor that is activated in case voltage reaches 14,2V and the regulator cuts off charging.



I'm going to use a Victron Orion-Tr Smart B2B charger to separate starter and house batteries.

The question is - what is the best option to connect wind gen - to the starter battery (before the B2B charger) or directly to LifePo4 battery?

Where to connect depends on where you direct your DC charge sources or whether you split them with some to lead acid start battery and some to lithium house.

We are planning to direct all DC charging to our lithium house bank. Our wind generator regulator enables us to do that safely as we can set the regulator to a safe voltage for the lithium (13.9V).

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

The Balmar Duocharger and Victron Orion Smart Charger from the comment above have the same functionality. But the Orion has several advantages over the Balmar:

A) up to 6 Orion can be paralleled to get the max charge off your alternator (6x30A=180A from one alternator) delivers while balmar is limited to 30A. It doesn't stand in the description of the balmar what happens if the alternator throws eg 80A at it. As also mentioned above measure the max current your alternator really delivers, not its rating.

B) orion has more battery parameters and wider range to program then the Balmar, eg if you wanna use LTO for your starter or/and house. Eg Down to 9V and up to 17V while Balmar 10.5 to 16V in 12V mode which is not enough for LTO.

C) you can program the Orion via BT smartphone/tablet while Balmar not

D) if you have already have victron multiplus or Quattro, Victron Battery Monitor BMV 712, victron smart sense temp sensor on the battery and Victron MPPT Solar charge controller the Orion talks to the others via BT VE-Bus, create a network and can much more precise control, protect and charge your batteries. Programming is super easy, you just pair them in the victron app and they communicate automatically. Like this you also have already all functions of a BMS integrated in your system with load control, under-, overvoltage control, high/low temp controll, charge profile parameters and can effectively charge bare lithium cells directly without its own BMS.



Yes superwind is the only windgen controller that has this build in function for load cut off. All others don't like the silentwind or D400. Yes they have also over and undervoltage cut off adjustable via programming but this is only steering/controlling the build in solar charger controller, not the wind gen controller part...not standing in the manual. Guess how i figured that out....

Pay attention:

And if you have a silentwind controler with the MPPT solar controller build in then the solar part interfere with the Victron MPPT smart controler and the overvoltage cut off the silentwind is fouled and only cuts of 1,5V higher, i was cooking my lead acid starter with 16V absorption while programmed was 14.4V. The Victron BMv 712 was showing overvolt alarm and the MPPT controller via Battery temp sense spikes of 21V on the battery therminals... Disconnected solar part of silentwind and all is running over 3 Victron MPPT now.now it works correctly. Your LFP bank would be dead and maybe even thermal runoff, i just had to fill up a lot water in the lead battery.

Thanks for the suggestions, but regarding your A, B and C points, we are planning to direct all DC charge sources to our lithium house bank. We will charge the two lead acid (AGM) start batteries from the house bank. There is no need for high current charging as they’re only relatively small start batteries - 30A from each Balmar Duocharge will be more than enough for each battery. The Orion is also an option for this application and hasn’t been dismissed, but it likely has more features than what we really need.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Thanks for the suggestions, but regarding your A, B and C points, we are planning to direct all DC charge sources to our lithium house bank. We will charge the two lead acid (AGM) start batteries from the house bank. There is no need for high current charging as they’re only relatively small start batteries - 30A from each Balmar Duocharge will be more than enough for each battery. The Orion is also an option for this application and hasn’t been dismissed, but it likely has more features than what we really need.

You understand the function of both chargers wrongly.
The total charge current of Balmar or one Victron is max 30A and this is then divided to charge lead starter and LFP house. They need to be in between alternator (or windgen) and both banks lead starter/ LFp house. Both are developed for older boats to update with LFP house which typically have small 40-70A poorly/simply regulated alternators which deliver max continuous 30A in reality.
But the Victron Orion up to 6 can be paralled to match your real max charge current from your alternator. A modern 80A standard alternator typically delivers safe max 50A, a 115A around 70Amax.
You need Balmar duo Or Victron orion between your standard alternator and the lifepo house as when LFP is empty the charge current sucked due to very low internal resistance of LFP from standard alternator is higher then its rating and you fry them especially when running engine on low rpm. 2nd if LFP cuts off the charge under load your diodes are destroyed. To prevent this both switch the load to the lead starter which has a high resistance so current is limited and so no current spike too and protects the diodes.
To charge LFP directly via alternator you need an external regulator for your standard alternator who measures the internal temp of the alternator and modifies the electric field so the current produced is limited to the cooling ability. Or you replace them with heavy duty alternators like Balmars, they are build to run on the rated max current continously and nearly all of them have this external regualtor fitted.
Yes there are boats out were LFP is directly connected to standard alternators but in most cases the lucky owner has undersized cableing and partly corroded which creates the resistance that rescues the alt and the diodes. Or the lfp is quite small compared to the alternator rating so the max current sucked is within the limits eg 200AH LFP on a 115A standard alternator mostly works, till roughly factory 2 its ok with most alternators.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Deividas

I have an old Aerogen 4 wind generator that has a resistor that is activated in case voltage reaches 14,2V and the regulator cuts off charging.

I'm going to use a Victron Orion-Tr Smart B2B charger to separate starter and house batteries.
The question is - what is the best option to connect wind gen - to the starter battery (before the B2B charger) or directly to LifePo4 battery?

If the windgen is protected like yours you connect it directly to the LFP house with a cutoff relay from your BMS or/and battery monitor if his regulator/controller doesn't have this function build in or i suggest to do it anyhow as its better to have both as a 2nd failsafe . The alt is connected to the orion which is then connected to lead starter and lfp house. I highly recommend to put a fast(!) 40A fuse on the input of the orion as the orion has an internal not replacable input fuse and if you have an incident like a short this internal fuse blows and you need to send it in for repair or a new one.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You understand the function of both chargers wrongly.
The total charge current of Balmar or one Victron is max 30A and this is then divided to charge lead starter and LFP house. They need to be in between alternator (or windgen) and both banks lead starter/ LFp house. Both are developed for older boats to update with LFP house which typically have small 40-70A poorly/simply regulated alternators which deliver max continuous 30A in reality.
But the Victron Orion up to 6 can be paralled to match your real max charge current from your alternator. A modern 80A standard alternator typically delivers safe max 50A, a 115A around 70Amax.
You need Balmar duo Or Victron orion between your standard alternator and the lifepo house as when LFP is empty the charge current sucked due to very low internal resistance of LFP from standard alternator is higher then its rating and you fry them especially when running engine on low rpm. 2nd if LFP cuts off the charge under load your diodes are destroyed. To prevent this both switch the load to the lead starter which has a high resistance so current is limited and so no current spike too and protects the diodes.
To charge LFP directly via alternator you need an external regulator for your standard alternator who measures the internal temp of the alternator and modifies the electric field so the current produced is limited to the cooling ability. Or you replace them with heavy duty alternators like Balmars, they are build to run on the rated max current continously and nearly all of them have this external regualtor fitted.
Yes there are boats out were LFP is directly connected to standard alternators but in most cases the lucky owner has undersized cableing and partly corroded which creates the resistance that rescues the alt and the diodes. Or the lfp is quite small compared to the alternator rating so the max current sucked is within the limits eg 200AH LFP on a 115A standard alternator mostly works, till roughly factory 2 its ok with most alternators.

You’re misunderstanding our planned setup - we are not splitting our charge sources for both house and starting batteries. That is our current setup using Mastervolt Battery Mates and it’s OK but as you point out won’t work for mixed chemistries. We will be charging our start batteries from the lithium house bank - there are numerous options for B2B chargers and the Balmar Duocharge and Victron Orion TR are two options.

Not sure if the OP is planning to split the charge, but if so your advice is spot on. Mine would be to not bother and direct the charge to only one battery bank, then B2B charge the other bank.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

You’re misunderstanding our planned setup - we are not splitting our charge sources for both house and starting batteries. That is our current setup using Mastervolt Battery Mates and it’s OK but as you point out won’t work for mixed chemistries. We will be charging our start batteries from the lithium house bank - there are numerous options for B2B chargers and the Balmar Duocharge and Victron Orion TR are two options.

Not sure if the OP is planning to split the charge, but if so your advice is spot on. Mine would be to not bother and direct the charge to only one battery bank, then B2B charge the other bank.

How do you protect your standard alternator in your setup when directly charging the LFP house in a) charging the empty LFP bank when idling or 1500rpm b) when the overvoltage protection kicks in because eg house bank is full and you are motoring 2800rpm in eg a storm. Both will kill your alternator

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

How do you protect your standard alternator in your setup when directly charging the LFP house in a) charging the empty LFP bank when idling or 1500rpm b) when the overvoltage protection kicks in because eg house bank is full and you are motoring 2800rpm in eg a storm. Both will kill your alternator

We have Balmar 614 external regulators - the BMS relay connects to them and provides a 5 second notice of charge cut off. The 614s tell the alternators to stop charging, then the cut off. When the LFP is ready for charging the 614s temperature monitor and throttle the alternators. Follow my thread on our changeover to see the system design (not posted yet) and notes and let’s not off topic this thread.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

We have Balmar 614 external regulators - the BMS relay connects to them and provides a 5 second notice of charge cut off. The 614s tell the alternators to stop charging, then the cut off. When the LFP is ready for charging the 614s temperature monitor and throttle the alternators. Follow my thread on our changeover to see the system design (not posted yet) and notes and let’s not off topic this thread.

so thats the best and optimum solution i suggested in my first post. then you connect the alternator directly to the LFP bank.

in this case Duocharge or Orion is waste of money. suggest to get a cheap 10 or 20A DC to DC charger for each lead starter and connect the DC to DC charger directly to the LFP house bank. nothing is off topic here, all relevant if you switch to mixed lead and LFP bank.

[barrymac]

Well I hadn't noticed all the good posts since last I checked, so as it turned out I had ordered my kit before reading them.

In any case, for posterity here's some photos of the resultant installation. When I have diagrams I'll add them.