Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Why would it be suspect, it either overcharged it or it didn’t. But surely overcharging an agm cannot make it explode?? FLA , non agm or gel, batteries don’t explode when you overcharge them…I overcharge my batteries all the time and they do not explode, I think 32v is the equalising voltage and sometimes I use 33v. Of course they are always bubbling and screaming…I think they like that.

Apologies, it was a gel battery. Forgot we switched from gel to agm. So it was during the gel era!

“Suspect” because I was not there and have no proof what happened, also the auto electritian “suspected” it.

And, yes, they do explode, right after the bubbling and screaming…..

[team karst]

I see a new test for any "marine" battery necessary. Charge, then immerse in saltwater.

Even with a sealed battery assembly, electrolysis will happen on the exposed posts. At some point, the erosion of the lead/stainless will violate any enclosure. What happens next is salt water intrusion. Now, you have a real situation, in that every cell starts to have electrolysis, and electronics is involved. I've only had one battery submerge in seawater, but I fixed it before something worse happened.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by team karst

I see a new test for any "marine" battery necessary. Charge, then immerse in saltwater.

Even with a sealed battery assembly, electrolysis will happen on the exposed posts. At some point, the erosion of the lead/stainless will violate any enclosure. What happens next is salt water intrusion. Now, you have a real situation, in that every cell starts to have electrolysis, and electronics is involved. I've only had one battery submerge in seawater, but I fixed it before something worse happened.

Bit like a text for petroleum by setting it alright and then being surprised when it burns.

[team karst]

one could argue that an immersed battery is not rare, especially when so many (maybe most) are below the waterline, even when the bilge is dry.

I don't want to have to fight a fire, when dewatering. What other bilge object becomes this sort of hazard? Not fuel, not propane, not an invertor, battery charger, flares, ammo, Semtex, etc.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Calder has no friend of LFp constantly saying half truths.

Calder has added more confusion to lithium then most writers and presides in misleading people his influence in ABYC cannot be good in this regard.

I think there is an element of wishful thinking involved when you are dismissing facts presented by the noted expert Nigel Calder so lightly.

Obviously the evidence of your own eyes in the previous video did not convince you either. The case material was aluminium. What was burning so vigorously if not the electrolyte? Here is another example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLzPSN8iagkAaa

Having a flammable electrolyte does not make LFP batteries unsuitable. There are plenty of substances aboard a typical cruising yacht that are flammable such as petrol, propane, solvents etc.

However, in any useful discussion about safety the basic facts need to known. There is no place for denying well established fundamental properties such the flammability of the electrolyte.

[donradcliffe]

I tried to get info on the electrolyte in production LiFePo4 batteries, but it seems to be proprietary to the manufacturers. After seeing the result of a thermal runaway in a Tesla Megapack, I found that Tesla refuses to disclose anything, even to the buyers of their batteries.

I due know from professional experience with UF6 that Hydrogen Fluoride is REALLY nasty stuff.

I would add one step to the recovery from a flooding incident. If you can dewater the boat, you have a few hours to get your batteries pitched over the side, but don't wait.

A new test for the ABYC--submerge LiFePo4 batteries in salt water, see how long they function, then drain the water and watch them for a couple of weeks.

[Chotu]

So given that it can catch on fire, a good line of discussion is what do we use to put out that fire? Exactly what is best?


I don’t think Tesla‘s use LIFEP04. From what I read they are lousy for electric car purposes. Especially because they don’t work below freezing.

[team karst]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

...

I would add one step to the recovery from a flooding incident. If you can dewater the boat, you have a few hours to get your batteries pitched over the side, but don't wait.

A new test for the ABYC--submerge LiFePo4 batteries in salt water, see how long they function, then drain the water and watch them for a couple of weeks.

Oh Honey; after you deploy the liferaft and call mayday, can I start passing you a stack of 300Ah Li batteries for you to pitch over the side? THAT will be a great story. Timing is everything. Don't want to have the wifie handle cells actually on fire yet.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by ItDepends

The electrolyte solution contains diethyl carbamate, (or sometime dimethyl carbabmate) and YES it is flammable... and YES it can catch fire, and as a vapor cloud YES it can explode. It is EXTREMELY difficult to make this happen.

This is DIFFERENT than saying that LiFePO batteries are a serious and imminent fire hazard. But don't ignore the facts...

Yes, and wood is flammable, and corn starch can explode. There is a lot of panic over LFP that just isn't justified, and this thread is propagating it.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by team karst

Oh Honey; after you deploy the liferaft and call mayday, can I start passing you a stack of 300Ah Li batteries for you to pitch over the side? THAT will be a great story. Timing is everything. Don't want to have the wifie handle cells actually on fire yet.

The batteries, if they caught fire at all (there is NO evidence that they did) didn't do so for 24 hours after being submerged. There was plenty of time to do something about them.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I tried to get info on the electrolyte in production LiFePo4 batteries, but it seems to be proprietary to the manufacturers. After seeing the result of a thermal runaway in a Tesla Megapack, I found that Tesla refuses to disclose anything, even to the buyers of their batteries.

I due know from professional experience with UF6 that Hydrogen Fluoride is REALLY nasty stuff.

I would add one step to the recovery from a flooding incident. If you can dewater the boat, you have a few hours to get your batteries pitched over the side, but don't wait.

A new test for the ABYC--submerge LiFePo4 batteries in salt water, see how long they function, then drain the water and watch them for a couple of weeks.

Tesla batteries were not LiFePo4 until recently.
They were LithiumIon. Tesla changed to LiFePo4 because of the thermal runaway risk on LithiumIon batteries.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Tesla batteries were not LiFePo4 until recently.
They were LithiumIon. Tesla changed to LiFePo4 because of the thermal runaway risk on LithiumIon batteries.

I think they've only changed some of their cars to LFP, not all of them.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I think they've only changed some of their cars to LFP, not all of them.

Probably they are still in the process of adapting all of the models?

[s/v Jedi]

So look at it like this: a simple pine 2x4 from Home Depot is more flammable than a LFP cell. Now would you keep a 2x4 outside in fear of it combusting? If you do that, then you still shouldn’t keep the LFP cell out because the 2x4 is much, much more flammable.

Also, your boat itself, unless it’s a bare steel hull, is more flammable than a LFP cell. Will you be brave enough to go inside the boat? If so, don’t worry about the LFP cells because when you bring those inside, you make it safer.

Talking about explosive batteries… hydrogen? You have LA batteries?

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So look at it like this: a simple pine 2x4 from Home Depot is more flammable than a LFP cell. Now would you keep a 2x4 outside in fear of it combusting? If you do that, then you still shouldn’t keep the LFP cell out because the 2x4 is much, much more flammable.

Also, your boat itself, unless it’s a bare steel hull, is more flammable than a LFP cell. Will you be brave enough to go inside the boat? If so, don’t worry about the LFP cells because when you bring those inside, you make it safer.

Talking about explosive batteries… hydrogen? You have LA batteries?

But the real question is whether a LiFePo4 battery is more susceptible to spontaneous combustion than a 2x4? I'm pretty sure I know the answer.