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Old 29-12-2021, 10:08   #61
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
You would be surprised how many times the AIS data from merchant vessels is bungled - for example it's not uncommon for their AIS will show a totally wrong heading, but radar and arpa to show another - and we know which one is correct
I happen to currently have this sort of problem with the Simrad nmea2000 electronics on my 34 ft sailboat. With my TP32 tillerpilot in STBY or AUTO, my NAIS500 AIS unit transmits the correct heading that it obtains from my GS25 AIS/magnetic compass. When the TP32 is in AUTO or NAV, my NAIS500 transmits a heading of 000° or 359°. I have had four different vessels call me to tell me of the problem; they see my HDG and COG on their displays to be vastly different. I can reproduce the problem at the dock and have been talking to Simrad about the problem since June but with no resolution yet.
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Old 29-12-2021, 21:24   #62
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I’m aware things have tightened up in recent years...
'Recent years' is 15+ years, so already a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nor did I say RYA yachtmaster was for a captain, I mentioned that in relation to deck hands.
Well in fact I said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
The Deck Crew and the Engineers are most definitely certified to a high level, and even the Stewardesses are required to be safety and firefighting certified as a minimum.
and you replied with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...Of course individual owners and operating companies may have specific requirements ( RYA Yachtmaster for deck crew , being a common one ) but its rarely mandatory
The Captain is part of the Deck Crew ('Deck Officers' to be exactly correct) - since they are neither Engineering Crew nor Interior Crew.

So my following rebuttal still stands:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
... RYA Yachtmaster, for Captain of a 60m/200ft superyacht? Not these days... (and not for a long time). Even the insurance companies would baulk at that for a start.
So I'm sorry but you are simply not correct by saying 'nothing could be actually further from the truth, in reply to my comment that 'The Deck Crew and the Engineers are most definitely certified to a high level'

In addition the suggestion that is 'rarely mandatory' for the Deck Crew of a 60m / 200ft superyacht to require 'formal training' is also so far from reality on most superyachts as to be 99% false.

A superyacht yacht like the 60m / 200ft Utopia IV at 986 GRT is in fact likely to have THREE Deck Officers certified to a high level:

- Captain, Master 3000grt
- First Officer, Chief Officer 3000grt
- Second Officer, OOW 3000grt

Utopia's 13 crew probably breaks down something like: Captain, 1st Officer, 2nd Officer, Bosun, 2 Deckhands, 2 Engineers, Chef, and 4 Stewardesses.

These other crew will be certified to various levels too however as we can see there is a minimum of 3 highly certified Deck Crew to run the bridge at sea, with possibly 3 more Deck Crew able to assist if required.

As Captain/Master/First Officer of multiple superyachts over many years I can speak with first hand knowledge of this subject and reiterate the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Most superyachts are far from some type of rogue pirate of the seas like you are trying to make out - instead most are in fact run to a very high standard, generally exceeding the necessary requirements, especially since they do not have the same financial constraints of other vessels plying their trade.

In any case I'm not writing any of this to defend or excuse the actions of Utopia IV, but instead to rebut some of the misinformation in other posts.


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Old 29-12-2021, 22:15   #63
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
These people are not immune from making errors.
This I will certainly agree with. Superyachts or not, nobody is immune from making errors and constant vigilence is always necessary and prudent

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I’ve seen big super yachts brazenly virtually shut down an small harbour (presumably with the port authorities approval) by laying an anchor chain across 15 boats. The arrogance is sometimes breathtaking.
As you mentioned 'presumably with the port authorities approval'...

So this is not 'arrogance' as you suggest, this is simply how it works in the Mediterranean with a lot of boats and limited space.

It's often stressful and frustrating for the superyacht captain too. Nobody wants to be doing that if it can be avoided, but the reality in most cases is that it just can't be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I was in bonefacio a few years ago when a tri decker picked up the anchor chain of another tri-decker trying to berth in a ludicrously tight spot, again a career ending move for its captain.
Why would it be a 'career ending move for its captain'? I'm sorry but you are just writing utter nonsense now...

Picking up the chain of other boats in the port is simply a occupational hazard when stern to in many Mediterranean ports. Superyachts do this all the time - like every day when going on and off the dock. Yes, this anchor and chain debacle can literally be every day sometimes

It's completely normal for both the boat that is maneuvering, as well as the boats already on the dock to be aware, understanding, and prepared in relation to this and most crews are skilled in the process since it is such a common occurence.

Sometimes there will be 2 anchors down, or a combination of anchors and ground lines, or sometimes just ground lines, depending on the port, the berth, the size of boat, the weather conditions, etc.

Divers and air bags are also often used in this situation, either during the maneuvering to free the anchor from the other boat's chain (or worse, the port's big mooring chains) - although you might get lucky, not need the diver, and be able to save some money in the budget.

Or as I would normally try to do (since I was fortunate to not normally have such budget constraints) - use the diver in advance to 'float' the anchor and retrieve it back onboard while still tied to the dock (generally using the ground lines to hold the boat in place, or as a last resort a temporary line to the neighbouring boat)

This then enables a guaranteed troublefree departure with the guests.

Yes it all seems like a big procedure each day, but that's just life. Despite popular opinion, working on a superyacht is actually a lot of work in general.

So none of this is arrogance or career ending as you would like to suggest. Instead it's just an everyday occurence on a superyacht in the Mediterranean ports.

If you had real knowledge of how these boats operate you would be aware of this, and other points too.

Instead you seem to have some strange opinions and incorrect information about many things in relation to superyachts.

I would prefer if you stopped posting such misinformation here please.




PS: for everyone else, don't believe everything you see on Below Decks!
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Old 29-12-2021, 22:16   #64
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmurdoch View Post
I happen to currently have this sort of problem with the Simrad nmea2000 electronics on my 34 ft sailboat. With my TP32 tillerpilot in STBY or AUTO, my NAIS500 AIS unit transmits the correct heading that it obtains from my GS25 AIS/magnetic compass. When the TP32 is in AUTO or NAV, my NAIS500 transmits a heading of 000° or 359°. I have had four different vessels call me to tell me of the problem; they see my HDG and COG on their displays to be vastly different. I can reproduce the problem at the dock and have been talking to Simrad about the problem since June but with no resolution yet.
This happens frequently from stashing magnetic or massive metallic stuff too close to your fluxgate compass. On a small boat, it can be difficult to keep everything outside the specified radius, all the time. In my case, there is a massive steel bridge near the entrance to the marina. If the chart and radar images of the bridge don’t line up properly, there is something too close to the fluxgate.
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Old 30-12-2021, 01:23   #65
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
... Utopia's 13 crew probably breaks down something like: Captain, 1st Officer, 2nd Officer, Bosun, 2 Deckhands, 2 Engineers, Chef, and 4 Stewardesses.

These other crew will be certified to various levels too however as we can see there is a minimum of 3 highly certified Deck Crew to run the bridge at sea, with possibly 3 more Deck Crew able to assist if required ...
Most often, like, standing anchor watch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
... PS: for everyone else, don't believe everything you see on Below Decks!
Horrors! Please say it ain't so!
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Old 30-12-2021, 03:38   #66
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
To goboatingnow:

Despite popular opinion, working on a superyacht is actually a lot of work in general.

If you had real knowledge of how these boats operate you would be aware of this, and other points too.

You seem to have some strange opinions and incorrect information about many things in relation to superyachts.

I would prefer if you stopped posting such misinformation here please.




PS: for everyone else, don't believe everything you see on Below Decks!
+1

I corroborate everything JMH has said although I don't have quite his pedigree, having worked as a Head Stewardess of a privately owned 125' Feadship. Not quite the high-end screamin' machines he's captained.

Yes, all the deck crew were highly qualified to the standard he mentions. Even our two bosuns/ deckhands were former professional fisherman from Gloucester, MA who had actually been out in The Perfect Storm - had survived and got out of fishing altogether. [Just an interesting aside.]

We actually had two crew assigned to each watch when underway: one of the 3 senior deck crew and a secondary like me. So the bridge would never be empty/watch interrupted if one had to go to the loo or get a snack. Assigned watch was always on the bridgedeck, NOT "serving guests cocktails". (That never happened.)

And yes, working on a private yacht is not like "Below Decks" - nothing more than a sensational reality-TV show. Real yacht crews are working too hard for all the BS shown on that series.

As JMH says (other than one other job I had in my life) I've never worked harder than when I was on private motoryachts.

LW77
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Old 30-12-2021, 03:50   #67
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M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New Provi

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
This I will certainly agree with. Superyachts or not, nobody is immune from making errors and constant vigilence is always necessary and prudent



As you mentioned 'presumably with the port authorities approval'...

So this is not 'arrogance' as you suggest, this is simply how it works in the Mediterranean with a lot of boats and limited space.

It's often stressful and frustrating for the superyacht captain too. Nobody wants to be doing that if it can be avoided, but the reality in most cases is that it just can't be.




Why would it be a 'career ending move for its captain'? I'm sorry but you are just writing utter nonsense now...

Picking up the chain of other boats in the port is simply a occupational hazard when stern to in many Mediterranean ports. Superyachts do this all the time - like every day when going on and off the dock. Yes, this anchor and chain debacle can literally be every day sometimes

It's completely normal for both the boat that is maneuvering, as well as the boats already on the dock to be aware, understanding, and prepared in relation to this and most crews are skilled in the process since it is such a common occurence.

Sometimes there will be 2 anchors down, or a combination of anchors and ground lines, or sometimes just ground lines, depending on the port, the berth, the size of boat, the weather conditions, etc.

Divers and air bags are also often used in this situation, either during the maneuvering to free the anchor from the other boat's chain (or worse, the port's big mooring chains) - although you might get lucky, not need the diver, and be able to save some money in the budget.

Or as I would normally try to do (since I was fortunate to not normally have such budget constraints) - use the diver in advance to 'float' the anchor and retrieve it back onboard while still tied to the dock (generally using the ground lines to hold the boat in place, or as a last resort a temporary line to the neighbouring boat)

This then enables a guaranteed troublefree departure with the guests.

Yes it all seems like a big procedure each day, but that's just life. Despite popular opinion, working on a superyacht is actually a lot of work in general.

So none of this is arrogance or career ending as you would like to suggest. Instead it's just an everyday occurence on a superyacht in the Mediterranean ports.

If you had real knowledge of how these boats operate you would be aware of this, and other points too.

Instead you seem to have some strange opinions and incorrect information about many things in relation to superyachts.

I would prefer if you stopped posting such misinformation here please.




PS: for everyone else, don't believe everything you see on Below Decks!


I happen to know it was a career ending move on this case

What’s “ Below Decks” I take it from the context it’s on the TV ??
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Old 30-12-2021, 03:53   #68
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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Originally Posted by LittleWing77 View Post
+1

I corroborate everything JMH has said although I don't have quite his pedigree, having worked as a Head Stewardess of a privately owned 125' Feadship. Not quite the high-end screamin' machines he's captained.

Yes, all the deck crew were highly qualified to the standard he mentions. Even our two bosuns/ deckhands were former professional fisherman from Gloucester, MA who had actually been out in The Perfect Storm - had survived and got out of fishing altogether. [Just an interesting aside.]

We actually had two crew assigned to each watch when underway: one of the 3 senior deck crew and a secondary like me. So the bridge would never be empty/watch interrupted if one had to go to the loo or get a snack. Assigned watch was always on the bridgedeck, NOT "serving guests cocktails". (That never happened.)

And yes, working on a private yacht is not like "Below Decks" - nothing more than a sensational reality-TV show. Real yacht crews are working too hard for all the BS shown on that series.

As JMH says (other than one other job I had in my life) I've never worked harder than when I was on private motoryachts.

LW77


So all these super qualified people and multiple watch keepers ploughed into the stern of a small coaster nevertheless.
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Old 30-12-2021, 05:10   #69
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

A lot of the folk here claim that the Tropic Breeze appeared not to be using AIS. As far as I know, it did not have to and was not required to transmit AIS. It was not on an international voyage. But it would have been a good idea!
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Old 30-12-2021, 05:26   #70
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pirate Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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A lot of the folk here claim that the Tropic Breeze appeared not to be using AIS. As far as I know, it did not have to and was not required to transmit AIS. It was not on an international voyage. But it would have been a good idea!
I dispute this as the vessel meets 2 standards that require this... weight and passenger vessel (Charter).

https://www.raymarine.com/uploadedFi...tionSystem.pdf
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Old 30-12-2021, 05:36   #71
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
So all these super qualified people and multiple watch keepers ploughed into the stern of a small coaster nevertheless.
EXACTLY, the human factor cannot be engineered out. It is why the rating "idiot proof" should no longer be used. Systems are now "idiot resistant", at best.


On a delivery, I can set a radar guard zone, AIS alarm and have a owner/watch-keeper on deck. If (s)he is messing with their phone playing Candy Crush, or if they fall asleep, - bad things can still happen.

It will be interesting to read the final report on this. The Tropic Breeze appeared to have appropriate running lights. It is not clear what the visibility astern was on Tropic Breeze.

Could their watch keepers have seen the other vessel was cutting it close? Should they have radioed? If they saw Utopia, should they have altered course? That is up to whoever is doing the inquiry.

It would appear based on the available facts that Utopia bears the brunt of the blame. But will read the report to see if Tropic Breeze had operating radar/AIS and if she was required to monitor them. I think I know the answer, but will leave the conclusions to those examining this.
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Old 30-12-2021, 05:37   #72
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61;3545992[FONT=Verdana
][/FONT]I dispute this as the vessel meets 2 standards that require this... weight and passenger vessel (Charter).
https://www.raymarine.com/uploadedFi...tionSystem.pdf

Indeed [maybe].

The regulation requires AIS to be fitted aboard all ships of 300 gross tonnage and upwards engaged on international voyages, cargo ships of 500 gross tonnage and upwards not engaged on international voyages, and all passenger ships irrespective of size.
IMO https://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/Pages/AIS.aspx

Is it ['Utopia IV']a passenger ship, or a private yacht, with passengers? [IDK]

Edit:

Passenger ships - usually defined as a ship carrying more than 12 passengers* - on international voyages must comply with all relevant IMO regulations, including those in the SOLAS and Load Lines Conventions.
IMOhttps://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safet...ngerShips.aspx

* A passenger ship carrying fewer than 13 passengers on a voyage may operate and be certificated on that voyage as a cargo ship.

SOLAS 2018
Consolidated Edition
CHAPTER I GENERAL PROVISIONS
PART A-APPLICATION, DEFINITIONS, ETC.
(f) A passenger ship is a ship which carries more than twelve passengers.
(g) A cargo ship is any ship which is not a passenger ship.
https://www.samgongustofa.is/media/e...-2018.docx.pdf
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Old 30-12-2021, 05:50   #73
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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Article says all product is lighter than water and will evaporate once exposed to the air.
Had a friend years ago who was a PhD professor teaching wetlands and environmental courses. This was his take on oil spills, basically all the lighter fractions will evaporate and leave very little behind.

But I do have to wonder how much low grade bunker fuel was in the tanks when the tanker sank.
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Old 30-12-2021, 05:55   #74
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I dispute this as the vessel meets 2 standards that require this... weight and passenger vessel (Charter).



https://www.raymarine.com/uploadedFi...tionSystem.pdf



The Tropic Breeze was a supply vessel of 343GT, and not a passenger vessel. The Regulations are:

“The regulation requires AIS to be fitted aboard all ships of 300 gross tonnage and upwards engaged on international voyages, cargo ships of 500 gross tonnage and upwards not engaged on international voyages and all passenger ships irrespective of size. The requirement became effective for all ships by 31 December 2004.”

It was not, from what I can gather, on an “international voyage” - it was doing inter-island supplying of fuels and cargo. Thus, reading the regulations, it was below the require 500GT and on a non-international voyage and not a passenger vessel. Only if it was on an international voyage would it be compulsory to transmit AIS as it was registered as a 343GT vessel. I hope it makes some logic - if I am wrong, I will be glad to admit my error.
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Old 30-12-2021, 06:02   #75
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Re: M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New P

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I happen to know it was a career ending move on this case

What’s “ Below Decks” I take it from the context it’s on the TV ??
Below Decks is one of the "reality" shows that have infested the great wasteland in recent years. Features crew members on megayachts doing whatever scripted BS these shows try to foist upon the world as reality.

Appearing on the show is another way to end a career in the big boat business.
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