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Old 01-04-2024, 11:27   #91
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Updates:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/br...d329de07&ei=16


Capt. of the Port of Baltimore is preparing to open a 'temporary
alternate channel' in the vicinity of the Key Bridge


The Captain of the Port of Baltimore (COTP) is preparing to establish a temporary alternate channel on the northeast side of the main channel in the vicinity of the Francis Scott Key Bridge for commercially essential vessels.


This action is part of a phased approach to opening the main channel. The temporary channel will be marked with government lighted aids to navigate and will have a controlling depth of 11 feet, a 264-foot horizontal clearance, and vertical clearance of 96 feet.



2,600 Carnival cruise passengers rerouted from Baltimore arrive in Virginia

The first of multiple Carnival cruise ships rerouted from Baltimore due to the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge arrived at a port in Norfolk, Virginia, on Sunday

About 2,600 guests aboard the Carnival Legend returned from a cruise to the Bahamas, getting off the ship in Norfolk. The passengers boarded 70 buses and were driven four hours back to Baltimore, where many left their cars parked.
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Old 01-04-2024, 11:42   #92
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

The sequence I read was:
Lost ALL lights
All lights came back
Lost all but emergency lights
Crash

That sounds like:
Lost main generator/buss
Restarted Main Generator or Switched to Back up WHILE starting Emergency Generator
Lost main buss again, but kept emergency generator
Crash

I have read the Emergency Generator may only turn the rudder slowly. Also the loads to the Emergency generator are sequential so as to not overload generator. EGen is to start in 45 seconds, but who knows how long before rudder control is connected.

So, perhaps from a steering perspective
Something starting a Stb turn
Loss of main buss, no rudder
Time to reconnect main buss, no rudder control
Emergency gen starts but not turning rudder
Main buss back, how long to regain rudder?
Loose main bus again, no rudder
Time to shift loads to Emergency Buss, rudder may not be first thing - no rudder control

Apparently the Automation System determines which loads go where. I can see, perhaps, a scenario where between loosing the buss, starting the Emergency, and regaining the buss, and loosing the buss there is a lot of Automation processing going on. Maybe that sequence got mucked up and the rudder was simply without power that whole time.

Like everyone else, speculating.
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Old 01-04-2024, 13:15   #93
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Poor risk analysis and response on the part of the bridge's owners.

A number of bridges have been bought down by ship collisions and equipment failures at critical moments aboard vessels are not unknown. A few hundred feet of sheet pile and a few thousand tons of rock may have prevented the problem.
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Old 01-04-2024, 13:51   #94
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Poor risk analysis and response on the part of the bridge's owners.

A number of bridges have been bought down by ship collisions and equipment failures at critical moments aboard vessels are not unknown. A few hundred feet of sheet pile and a few thousand tons of rock may have prevented the problem.
Poor risk analysis!!!! Exactly.
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Old 01-04-2024, 14:13   #95
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

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I'm trying to visualize the theory that the port anchor somehow sent them to starboard.

From the angle of the hit compared to the heading straight down the channel, and from the video and AIS tracking, it appears to me the ship's heading altered somehow to starboard.

Had the anchor affected the ship at all, it seems to me it would exert a force pulling aft from the port bow. In my mind, I can only envision that force swinging the stern to starboard, and/or the bow to port. The opposite of the heading change I observed.

This is bothering me. Is there something I'm not seeing here?
A lot depends on where the anchor and chain was lying on the bottom relative to the centerline of the ship. If the ship had already started to swing and she went over the ground tackle, the anchor would have/could have ended up effectively on the stbd side and contributed to the swing , not negated it. There was other stuff going on at the same time, the actual collision speed was slow, less than 2 knots so either the strategy (full astern and dragging anchor) was working or she’d grounded.
The conspiracy theorists are crawling over the subject like cockroaches with a display of technical ignorance that defies all the logical and informed knowledge coming from Gcaptain engineers and masters and Sal Mercogliano.
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Old 01-04-2024, 22:42   #96
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

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Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
A lot depends on where the anchor and chain was lying on the bottom relative to the centerline of the ship. If the ship had already started to swing and she went over the ground tackle, the anchor would have/could have ended up effectively on the stbd side and contributed to the swing , not negated it.
That's really the only thing that makes sense as the wind looked to be too light to cause such a sudden turn, although it was from the port quarter, also the hard to port order was given once the backup genny kicked in but it's not known yet if the rudder responded.

Quote:
There was other stuff going on at the same time, the actual collision speed was slow, less than 2 knots so either the strategy (full astern and dragging anchor) was working or she’d grounded.
The pilot reported the main engine was never restarted and there was no prop wash visible in any of the videos nor any command given from the helm. The smoke from the stack was consistent with the timing of the back up generator starting.
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Old 02-04-2024, 00:11   #97
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Yeah , I was interested to hear how a restart could be accomplished from 8.5 knots ahead to full astern ….the black smoke might be from the start air and residual fuel, just compressing it down to a stop would seriously deplete the air receivers.
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Old 02-04-2024, 02:29   #98
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Turning to stb was most likely at least partially caused by the sudden stop of propulsion. There's always propwalk without counter rotating screws and the rudder must counter the propwalk (Dali has a single fixed pitch propeller). With engine fault and loosing power for rudder turning ship is inevitable..
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Old 02-04-2024, 02:46   #99
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Every four years, the American Society of Civil Engineers [ASCE)] releases the “Report Card for America's Infrastructure”.

“In 2021, America scored a C-, on the ASCE Report Card for America's Infrastructure ” ~ American Society of Civil Engineers
ASCE evaluates the state of America's infrastructure in 17 categories, applying a school report card style A-F grading system. The report card also includes recommendations to raise the grades.
https://www.asce.org/topics/report-c...infrastructure

The 2021 ASCE Report Card ➥ https://infrastructurereportcard.org/

17 Categories, Including:

Bridges [C] ➥ https://www.asce.org/topics/report-c...infrastructure

Ports [B-] ➥ https://infrastructurereportcard.org...nfrastructure/

Inland Waterways [D+] ➥ https://infrastructurereportcard.org...nfrastructure/

See also:

How can we advance America’s port infrastructure ➥ https://www.asce.org/publications-an...infrastructure

What’s next for America’s inland waterways ➥ https://www.asce.org/publications-an...land-waterways

The State of U.S. Infrastructure ~ by James McBride, Noah Berman, Anshu Siripurapu; for the Council on Foreign Relations [Sept. 2023]
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/sta...infrastructure
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBride et al
“The $25 trillion U.S. economy relies on a vast network of infrastructure to keep it afloat. But the systems currently in place, including roads, railways, electrical grids, and internet providers, were built decades ago and are struggling to keep pace.
Economists say that delays and rising maintenance costs are holding economic performance back, and civil engineers warn that structurally deficient bridges and antiquated water infrastructure pose safety risks. Meanwhile, the United States lags behind other advanced economies in infrastructure quality and spending ...

... Transport. Transportation will require the largest chunk of funding needs. One in three bridges needs to be repaired or replaced, according to the American Road and Transportation Builders Association, and 7 percent are structurally deficient. (However, the number of bridges in need of repair has steadily decreased over the past decade) ... ➛”
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Old 02-04-2024, 05:50   #100
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
A lot depends on where the anchor and chain was lying on the bottom relative to the centerline of the ship. If the ship had already started to swing and she went over the ground tackle, the anchor would have/could have ended up effectively on the stbd side and contributed to the swing , not negated it...
Hmmm. I guess it could go like this: The boat starts turning to stbd, then the port anchor is deployed. It sails a bit on the way down, hitting the bottom somewhere stbd of the centerline. With the forward momentum, that could tug the bow to stbd enough to alter course, then break free before pivoting the stern. If that's what happened, talk about bad luck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
There was other stuff going on at the same time, the actual collision speed was slow, less than 2 knots so either the strategy (full astern and dragging anchor) was working or she’d grounded...
I wondered about that, too. Obviously the AIS receivers don't have access to real-time speed data. The AIS itself can only calculate an average speed over some short interval, maybe like 1-3 seconds. So I take those instantaneous speed displays on MarineTraffic or VesselFinder or whatever as somewhat deceptive.

Still, she could have grounded on the edge of the channel just before impact. Again, it seems it's just really bad luck that she slid in at just the right angle to miss, or nearly miss, everything but the bridge abutment.
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Old 02-04-2024, 09:00   #101
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Owners of Cargo Ship Behind Baltimore Bridge Collapse: Don't Blame Us

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/owners-cargo-ship-behind-baltimore-122000299.html

"Their legal argument relates to a 19th-century maritime law that could allow them to limit the amount of liability to the value of the vessel that caused the accident. That vessel—the cargo ship Dali—is currently worth around $42,500,000, as of the “termination of the voyage,” the filing notes. The filing also estimates that the current projected costs for fixing and salvaging the ship are tens of millions of dollars."
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Old 02-04-2024, 13:34   #102
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Pre COVID I was in Paris and enjoyed seeing the constant river traffic on the Seine, some of the barges have an underway connected length of 150-190 metres and I couldn’t help but wonder what the consequences of losing power on the downstream run through the 9 most valuable bridges on the planet, how much would it cost to rebuild the pont Neuf ? Just “dead in the water “ is still moving at 4 knots, often considerably more. The permitted weight on the barge identity sign is just short of 1,000 tons and these guys go through with 2 connected bow to stern.
On the Key bridge condition, I haven’t seen any rust streaks or any indication that the bridge was poorly maintained ( it looks great for its age, BUT , the container racks and foredeck videos from the investigation of the Dali showed severe corrosion and poor maintenance.
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Old 02-04-2024, 15:03   #103
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
Yeah , I was interested to hear how a restart could be accomplished from 8.5 knots ahead to full astern ….the black smoke might be from the start air and residual fuel, just compressing it down to a stop would seriously deplete the air receivers.
I'm sure we'll find out someday but my first thought was the black smoke was the generator, or back up generator, being restarted.
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Old 03-04-2024, 02:16   #104
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

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Old 03-04-2024, 02:40   #105
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Re: Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse

Underwater sonar images [US Navy], at site of Baltimore's Francis Scott Key Bridge bridge collapse
https://youtu.be/6qLpHHBwj8A

A tugboat, pushing a fuel barge, was the first vessel to use an alternate channel, late Monday. It was supplying jet fuel to Delaware’s Dover Air Force Base.
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