For all promoting flare guns for self defense

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Mythbusters did a show on it.

Low powered bullets tended to stay intact and make it deeper but even there quickly lose momentum.

High powered ones actually did worse. They took a 50 caliber and the bullets basically disintegrated.

It's a lot like doing a belly flop into a pool. Do it from the edge and it usually isn't a big deal. Do if off a 30ft high dive and you'll feel it for a week and possibly be injured.

I LOVE 'Mythbusters'; must have missed that episode. But I still contend it has a lot to do with the bullet, and the angle of impact. I'll have to see if I can find it and if Jamie and Adam can change my mind/prove me wrong.

That said, we were originally talking about 12 ga shotguns which are low powered.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

I don't cruise where I'd ever want a gun but I wonder where is a defensible position on a fibreglass boat?

Anywhere that puts distance and objects between you and the aggressor is a defensible position. Some are better than others.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Mythbusters did a show on it.

Low powered bullets tended to stay intact and make it deeper but even there quickly lose momentum.

High powered ones actually did worse. They took a 50 caliber and the bullets basically disintegrated.

It's a lot like doing a belly flop into a pool. Do it from the edge and it usually isn't a big deal. Do if off a 30ft high dive and you'll feel it for a week and possibly be injured.

So, I dug up the show and... I was wrong and stand corrected. High powered weapons are ineffective, and low powered weapons far more lethal when shooting into the water.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Oh no, the guy shooting himself in the head was fine, hardly a scratch.



Use a flare gun for emergency signaling, not for self defense.

What a moron. I wonder if he is wearing one shaded lens because of previous stupid actions.

I had a friend who had to temporarily wear one shaded lens due to a, not self inflicted, head injury once.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

What a moron. I wonder if he is wearing one shaded lens because of previous stupid actions.

I had a friend who had to temporarily wear one shaded lens due to a, not self inflicted, head injury once.

Reminds me of Jackass. Maybe that's the idea behind it...

[UsailIbail]

Thanks for the (original) movie! That just brought my defensive thinking forward 20 years.

Although it scarred me for life I guess the movie above was a learning experience too. I have to re think my offshore defensive kit.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Reminds me of Jackass. Maybe that's the idea behind it...

Could be!

[DocHolliday]

What - no shark sticks?

[C420sailor]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

I personally don't care about what department you're affiliated with and in this day and age, understand your concern. But when one makes 'obtuse' claims ('an academy' 'former cop') I am skeptical.

As to your case law 'rebuttal' - did you actually read it? In all three cases the charges of illegally having firearms in NYC/NJ while traveling were ultimately dropped/dismissed. While inconvenienced, they were permitted to travel with their guns.

What you posted was about the attempt of the individuals wronged to get subsequent damages from the Port Authority and officers involved; the court said no.

Agreed, but if you work in a potentially sensitive field where you have to disclose any and all arrests (whether the charge was dropped or not), it is still a black mark you’d rather not have to explain. It’s a significant inconvenience at the very least.

I wasn’t on the job for long. Got out of the military earlier than planned, had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. Tried my hand at the family business (LE) and didn’t enjoy it. Nothing against it, just wasn’t exactly what I was looking for. Moved on to another field.

NYC is just one of those ‘avoid if you can’ areas with regard to firearms. At best, you break even. Since I didn’t retire, I have a normal civilian pistol permit now, and it is specifically not valid in NYC. No kidding, I can’t shoot my handguns at a NYC range despite having a valid NYS permit, and I have to do the locked hard case with ammo in a second locked container if I drive through. It’s a red ass. That place is a dump.

[Tetepare]

Jim asked about the drop in adapters that take a metallic case firearm cartridge. Bad idea. These are made to various quality so whether it can handle the chamber pressure or will blow up is questionable. Worse, the back pressure on all except maybe .22 and .410 well exceed the design of a flare launcher (correct name) and can blow up backwards.

That said, I suppose given a one shot chance of defending the family at the risk of the very first use injuring my hand I’d take the risk.

If I did go that route I’d keep to .25 or .410 and fire no more than one test round.

Keep in mind too that depending on the sub cal insert caliber and design, slipping it into a flare launcher can be in violation of US state and or federal laws. The good thing is the sub cal insert can be thrown in the sewing kit and nobody would ever ID what it is.

Is just a good old plastic Olin flare launcher a viable defensive weapon? It’s better than nothing, if nothing else the intruder is unlikely to know it won’t light him on fire. Now, a can of de-icing fluid (rust belt auto store product) and a flare launcher will make sure bad guy is done, perhaps at the cost of the boat.

Oh heck if someone boards the boat point it at them or don’t. Your call. 50/50 either way.

Oh, darn but this has all been covered before in another thread on the same topic. That’s OK, somebody will bring it up again in three months, and we can rehash all the ill informed opinions again.

[JC Reefer]

“You blew a hole in our boat, now I’m going to blow one in theirs”

“Wow, mom is pissed”

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You’re just writing things you make up on the go. What I write is factual.

Specifically, we arrived in the Bahamas in February and checked in at Coopertown, Abacos. I reported a 20-gauge shotgun and a 9mm handgun plus exact count of ammo. The customs officer trusted me and did not board to verify. Guns and ammo are listed on the cruising permit.

End of April it turned out we needed to stay longer so in Green Turtle Cay, Abacos, we bought an extension for the cruising permit. The officer did not opt to board and verify guns or ammo.

Early May we were in Nassau, New Providence when the BDF (Bahamas Defense Force) boarded us for inspection. This included the guns. After a quick glance at the shotgun and ammo, we talked about the new CZ handgun I have and it’s features. The officer did not find it necessary to verify serial numbers, nor do an exact count of ammo.

Later in May we checked out of the Bahamas and the customs officer boarded us but did not find it necessary to check weapons or ammo. Certainly not when she noticed we were checked by the BDF before.

A couple days later we checked in at Port Canaveral, Florida. They did not ask about guns but I have both registered with them and they checked them before.

Note that I am Dutch, my boat is Dutch and our stays in the Bahamas as well as in Florida is strictly as tourist. We are seasonal residents in Florida and can legally buy and own guns there. We can also legally buy and own guns in the Netherlands.

Your position that cruisers get into trouble for having guns is because you think that these are illegal guns. I’m sure some cruisers have illegal guns or hide them instead of declaring them but for most they are legal. When you arrive in a country as tourist and declare the guns, they are legal to have there as well. There is no trouble. Even in European countries, citizens can travel with guns, even on flights. It is stricter than in the US where you can just put them in your checked bagage, but you just report to the bagage desk and tell them you want to check in a gun and a customs officer will come, check serial number etc., then accept it as checked bag. On arrival you normally have to retrieve it from the bagage desk just like pets, bicycles, surfboards etc.
The officers deal with this all day every day. When waiting at the desk at Amsterdam Schiphol airport, it was amazing how many guns were checked in. These aren’t just military or police: it can be any civilian going on a hunting trip or a target shooting match etc.

Glad it worked out well for you, maybe you look more trustworthy than most? Regardless, none of us is a moron who thinks a flare is more effective than a 9mm for self defense as your response implied. That's my point, if someone doesn't carry a 9mm cruising it's not because they seriously don't grasp the concept that a 9mm is a more effective for self defense than some improvised weapon. Its because they see the laws of the places they're travelling in, most of which without a doubt require a check-in of all weapons, and don't want to stake their plans of the vagaries of a customs or police officer opting to ignore those laws. The fact that it's worked out well for you doesn't make the rest of us fools who don't understand that a 9mm is more effective for self defense than a flare, which is what your comment was basically saying.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Glad it worked out well for you, maybe you look more trustworthy than most? Regardless, none of us is a moron who thinks a flare is more effective than a 9mm for self defense as your response implied. That's my point, if someone doesn't carry a 9mm cruising it's not because they seriously don't grasp the concept that a 9mm is a more effective for self defense than some improvised weapon. Its because they see the laws of the places they're travelling in, most of which without a doubt require a check-in of all weapons, and don't want to stake their plans of the vagaries of a customs or police officer opting to ignore those laws. The fact that it's worked out well for you doesn't make the rest of us fools who don't understand that a 9mm is more effective for self defense than a flare, which is what your comment was basically saying.

No, what I am saying is that one should not only forget about trying to use flare guns for self defense, but also not use special inserts for pistol or shotgun rounds. Not just because it isn’t safe but because it is illegal, while keeping a legal gun designed for self defense …. is legal when you qualify for it.

I understand it can become difficult because of bureaucratic idiocy in Europe, but in Europe you may not need it as much as in the Caribbean, but like I wrote before we never had to turn in our guns around the Caribbean which is about 20 countries that we checked in and out of many times, always reporting what we have, never trouble.

I must add that for most of that time we only had a shotgun aboard. A handgun is handled much more strictly and we only added that for our recent US and Bahamas trips. Most countries in the Americas consider a shotgun equal to a machete: a tool, more than a weapon.

[sailingchiro]

I personally like bear spray or wasp spray. I also like pepper balls in a paint ball gun. If being chased, dragging a bunch of line in the water while zig zagging. As for flare guns, only use for me is to shoot in the bottom of the chase boat in order to sink it after dousing with bear/wasp spray, fouling their prop., and peppering with pepper balls. I have no use for hot flares on my boat.

At night, I like the perimeter alarm (running fishing line around the boat and tied to dinghy with pole in salon on low drag) and come up shooting with pepper balls and bear spray. Both located in salon within in easy reach. then knock them down with stun gun. Then HVAC zip ties and duct tape. Call authorities.

[Talk Story]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

I personally like bear spray or wasp spray. I

Check out the youtube vids of guys taking wasp spray to the face....it is even less useful than the flare gun.

But, no comments on this? https://www.westmarine.com/buy/orion...ells--19384528

More useful than a flare? I sleep in an aft cabin with 5 ports, you could fire a few out the ports and scare the crap out of all onboard. Not enough for an Ak, but it might buy a little time.