For all promoting flare guns for self defense

[George DuBose]

I don't know how the Germans or European police regard licensed firearms, but an Orion plastic flare pistol cannot be registered as there is no serial number on them.

I spent half a day with on Helgoland with the German customs, immigration, water police while they tried to figure out what to do with my Orion flare pistol. In the end, they let me keep it, but the Dutch police told me I couldn't leave it unattended on board. I had to take it off the boat.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Metal flare launcher

The Dalec is quite a good shot, not sure about the other two walts dressed in camo.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Why would anyone do that? A proper shotgun costs less than $200 and won’t blow up in your face.

Jedi, I was merely expanding on Jim Cate's comment on using a sleeve in a flare gun. Also, a "proper shotgun" will get you "proper housing" in a "proper prison" in many parts of the world. I imagine it would also be far easier and less expensive to drop a sleeve overboard prior to entering port than a shotgun.
Just to reiterate, I am NOT promoting the use of sleeves in flare guns, nor am I in any way promoting the use of flare guns for self defense. I was just commenting on Jim Cate's remark.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Davo666

Three words - Sir Peter Blake

Blake’s problem wasn’t the plan, it was his very poor execution of the plan.

Having a firearm doesn’t make you a gunfighter any more than having a torque wrench makes you a diesel mechanic.

Training matters. So does experience, but at least it is possible to purchase training. Jedi pointed out that Blake’s gun jammed. Where I spent my career, we constantly practiced clearing jammed guns under pressure during our quarterly retraining (there are several ways to artificially cause one for that purpose). I am 100 per cent sure Blake never practiced for that eventuality even once.

And, that lack of general and specific training probably cost him his life. There are a lot of areas where that can happen on a boat when things go wrong.

The moral is: you can try and do difficult and dangerous things without the proper training, but, don’t be surprised if it turns out badly. But, that doesn’t mean it is impossible.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

If you are going to carry a shotgun why a "small gauge"? Less effective against sharks, or other 'aquatic threats'.

Carry a 12 and be done with it. I recommend #4 buck shot (not to be confused with #4 birdshot!). At 25' it has a 6-8" spread of around two dozen .24" pellets, has enough power to take down whitetail deer (at longer ranges) but is unlikely to blow a hole in the boat (except at near point-blank range).

Generally shooting into the water is very ineffective. The water absorbs the energy very quickly so unless the shark does you the favor of jumping into the cockpit, not very useful.

High powered guns are actually worse as the bullets tend to disintegrate upon impact with the water surface.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

That's half the battle right there. I'll wager most attacks are opportunistic. The attackers are looking for 'soft targets'.

If you have to defend yourself, it is far better to do so from an established defensive position, than to meet you attacker on 'equal terms'.

Opportunist thieves are unlikely come heavily armed. Odds are just you yelling will send them running.

But if they do come heavily armed, getting into a gun fight is unlikely to turn out well for you.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Pete, I don't want to dredge all the way through that thread so could you tell me if it addresses where my marbles (the ones everyone tells me I've lost) might be found? It would be a big help...

Jim

Found 'em for ya Jim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlu_...vation_Reserve

[C420sailor]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

You went through 'an' academy with a PA cop and he told you this? What academy? How long ago?

If the case gets tossed, you can have the record expunged (granted not an automatic thing) and if you don't get the gun back you sue. The 4th Amendment applies in NYC just like it does every where else in the US.

I have traveled with firearms in my baggage, off and on, for over 30 years, including into and out of LaGuardia and JFK. Never did they put a firearm tag outside the bag; I have never been stopped.

And (again) how would PAPD know there was a firearm in the bag? Are the gate agents telling them? Sorry, not buying it.

I think your 'source' was 'blowing smoke'.

Also, for the record:

United States Code Title 18 - Part I - Chapter 44
§ 926A. Interstate Transportation of Firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm

State / city law does not trump the Feds.

Here is just one of many lawsuits you can look up: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1529549.html.

The federal law you posted in fact DOES apply. That said, it isn’t taught in the police academy (or at least the one I attended) and most non-firearm buff cops don’t know about it, and many firearm owners don’t even know about it. There is still a VERY good chance you’ll get collared.

Nice try, but I’m not posting on a public forum what police department I was affiliated with. Especially in this day and age.

If you don’t believe me, don’t. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Opportunist thieves are unlikely come heavily armed. Odds are just you yelling will send them running.

But if they do come heavily armed, getting into a gun fight is unlikely to turn out well for you.

Sometimes, surrendering, and not fighting back, doesn't turn out so well, either.

https://www.noonsite.com/news/philip...ransom-unpaid/

[marcjsmith]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I love it...he shoots a flare through a sail. Moments later, no hole, no burn marks or fire. You gotta love Hollywood.

yeah but shot him in the mouth... talk about aim...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I guess most of us don't feel comfortable telling the cop in Nassau that really, it's OK that we have a gun that is clearly not legal for us to have in the Bahamas because the customs guy we checked in with at Bimini ignored it. You may very well be comfortable with that, great! The rest of us aren't and that's why we have discussions about items we could carry on a typical cruising boat and use for defense in a pinch. Not because we're all idiots who think improvised devices are more effective than a 9mm. That's all, a difference in comfort levels not a difference in intelligence.

You’re just writing things you make up on the go. What I write is factual.

Specifically, we arrived in the Bahamas in February and checked in at Coopertown, Abacos. I reported a 20-gauge shotgun and a 9mm handgun plus exact count of ammo. The customs officer trusted me and did not board to verify. Guns and ammo are listed on the cruising permit.

End of April it turned out we needed to stay longer so in Green Turtle Cay, Abacos, we bought an extension for the cruising permit. The officer did not opt to board and verify guns or ammo.

Early May we were in Nassau, New Providence when the BDF (Bahamas Defense Force) boarded us for inspection. This included the guns. After a quick glance at the shotgun and ammo, we talked about the new CZ handgun I have and it’s features. The officer did not find it necessary to verify serial numbers, nor do an exact count of ammo.

Later in May we checked out of the Bahamas and the customs officer boarded us but did not find it necessary to check weapons or ammo. Certainly not when she noticed we were checked by the BDF before.

A couple days later we checked in at Port Canaveral, Florida. They did not ask about guns but I have both registered with them and they checked them before.

Note that I am Dutch, my boat is Dutch and our stays in the Bahamas as well as in Florida is strictly as tourist. We are seasonal residents in Florida and can legally buy and own guns there. We can also legally buy and own guns in the Netherlands.

Your position that cruisers get into trouble for having guns is because you think that these are illegal guns. I’m sure some cruisers have illegal guns or hide them instead of declaring them but for most they are legal. When you arrive in a country as tourist and declare the guns, they are legal to have there as well. There is no trouble. Even in European countries, citizens can travel with guns, even on flights. It is stricter than in the US where you can just put them in your checked bagage, but you just report to the bagage desk and tell them you want to check in a gun and a customs officer will come, check serial number etc., then accept it as checked bag. On arrival you normally have to retrieve it from the bagage desk just like pets, bicycles, surfboards etc.
The officers deal with this all day every day. When waiting at the desk at Amsterdam Schiphol airport, it was amazing how many guns were checked in. These aren’t just military or police: it can be any civilian going on a hunting trip or a target shooting match etc.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Generally shooting into the water is very ineffective. The water absorbs the energy very quickly so unless the shark does you the favor of jumping into the cockpit, not very useful.

High powered guns are actually worse as the bullets tend to disintegrate upon impact with the water surface.

Don't tell me, tell 'capn_billl'. He's the one advocating shooting fish (must be from Vermont).

Who told you that bullets from high-powered guns tend to disintegrate upon impact with water? (Some do, some don't, depends on a lot of things, starting with the bullet.) That said, we're talking shotguns here, and lead pellets. Muzzle velocity between a 12 and 20 are only about 100 fps different.

But if they do come heavily armed, getting into a gun fight is unlikely to turn out well for you.

Even more so if you are going to go 'mano e mano' instead of from a defensible position.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

Don't tell me, tell 'capn_billl'. He's the one advocating shooting fish (must be from Vermont).

Who told you that bullets from high-powered guns tend to disintegrate upon impact with water? (Some do, some don't, depends on a lot of things, starting with the bullet.) That said, we're talking shotguns here, and lead pellets. Muzzle velocity between a 12 and 20 are only about 100 fps different.

Mythbusters did a show on it.

Low powered bullets tended to stay intact and make it deeper but even there quickly lose momentum.

High powered ones actually did worse. They took a 50 caliber and the bullets basically disintegrated.

It's a lot like doing a belly flop into a pool. Do it from the edge and it usually isn't a big deal. Do if off a 30ft high dive and you'll feel it for a week and possibly be injured.

[bcboomer]

[QUOTE=garyfdl;3434833

Even more so if you are going to go 'mano e mano' instead of from a defensible position.[/QUOTE]

I don't cruise where I'd ever want a gun but I wonder where is a defensible position on a fibreglass boat?

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by C420sailor

Here is just one of many lawsuits you can look up: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1529549.html.

The federal law you posted in fact DOES apply. That said, it isn’t taught in the police academy (or at least the one I attended) and most non-firearm buff cops don’t know about it, and many firearm owners don’t even know about it. There is still a VERY good chance you’ll get collared.

Nice try, but I’m not posting on a public forum what police department I was affiliated with. Especially in this day and age.

If you don’t believe me, don’t. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

I personally don't care about what department you're affiliated with and in this day and age, understand your concern. But when one makes 'obtuse' claims ('an academy' 'former cop') I am skeptical.

As to your case law 'rebuttal' - did you actually read it? In all three cases the charges of illegally having firearms in NYC/NJ while traveling were ultimately dropped/dismissed. While inconvenienced, they were permitted to travel with their guns.

What you posted was about the attempt of the individuals wronged to get subsequent damages from the Port Authority and officers involved; the court said no.