Electrical Panel replacement

[Jim Jones]

Some really good insights here.

The problem I am trying to solve is to update the panel. It is working and there is no apparent trouble or issue that I am aware of, but its as ugly as sin. I would like a more up to date panel that is of more modern appearance - if only for looks. To me the whole Nav Station/ panel area is ugly ugly ugly. The interior is drab in my eye. So why did I buy it?

The boat is an Aluminium retractable keel Garcia with tiller steering. That ticked many boxes for me, so utility does come first in my book. The boat has a very dated interior and I want to do a lot to it to clean it up and make it a bit more pleasing to the eye. In my view the interior is ugly enough as to not buy a boat like that, but I couldn't go past the aluminium hull and retractable keel. The circumstances on this boat were right - it was a unique chance to get the type of boat i was after. If I didn't jump on this one it may be years before i see another like it in my part of the world. Not that many used Garcia's at sensible pricing around.

Now what to do about that interior ?

As a first method of attack I thought the electrical system can be over hauled and thats why I am in this section of the forum. The boat has an inverter on board but its not a great one and its not a good installation. I want to take all that out and put Victron gear in. I would like to put Lithium batteries in and change the charging system on the engine to a large alternator to keep the Lithium's charged up. So thats a lot of work to the electrical system right there.

Even if I left the wiring alone and did nothing in that area I want to update the electrical panel as mentioned. Why? - because its darned ugly as is! I would like to update the interior to something a little softer on the eye. I suppose its a vanity thing rather then a technical need. But then again why do we choose beautiful women for partners instead of a girl who may be a bit more plain but a good hard worker? Instead a lot of us want the beautiful women who is high maintenance and who eventually runs away with the pool boy - we knew she would be no good but the looks won us over. I think you all get it (apologies to the women sailors reading this).

I would like to put in LED lights throughout the boat - reading here I have seen that there are LED replacement lights that can either fit into the same light fitting or I could replace the whole fitting with a new light fixture that has an LED chip in it. Important to me is that the LED can be either white or RED (for night use). I do realise that converting the lighting to LED does not mean the wiring has to be replaced.

So, its a long list of interior things to do - large alternator conversion/lithium battery bank install/ Victron full system install - inc solar charge controllers, Cerbos etc/ those are all needs - not wants. So while going that far I thought I would LOVE to change that ugly electrical panel. Which brought on the next thought - the boats wiring - how good is it at this age having been on the sea for 35 years? I thought its not that much of a leap to rewire the boat given all the other electrical things I need to do. That then brought on the thought about the new digital switching systems.

Its a one off chance to do this type of work to the boat. Once I am done doing this work there will not be another chance and in any case, I will be too busy living on it and using it to want to spend any time on this stuff. Its a now or never situation.

So I suppose you could say I am looking at the electrical system as a whole for some serious work. I had a long thread running about the D2-55 Volvo engine in the engine section of the forum. My point with that was I want to make sure the engine is as good as can be because I want to use the engine as a genset to charge batteries. So it all comes back to the electrical system in all its facets. I am looking at every bit of the electrical system - the electrics are only as strong as the weakest link.

So with all that taken into account, its hard to go past the good advice given above by a good number of seasoned yachties. So lots to think about. I dont start work on all this for about another month or so, ,......lots of time to think about it.

P.S

Also, this is my forever boat. I wont be changing it or updating to another boat. I wont ever be selling it. Its a rest of my life commitment to this boat _ I will be using it till I either can no longer physically get aboard or I die - which ever comes first. What the kids do with will not be my problem... LOL !! So I would like a nice floating home to live in while I indulge my adventures.

I reckon an aluminium hull built by the French in the 80's (when there were still some skilled tradesman around) that has a tiller steering system is as tough as they come. Throw in the retractable keel so I can get up into some river systems or just be able to hunker down close in to a beach that may be more protected in a blow and you have what I consider to be the ideal boat.

[Tupaia]

The biggest issue (problem) with electrical systems on old boats is not the switching but the wiring. Copper wiring oxidises, goes black and crunchy the connections build up resistance that leads to further problems.
Using tinned wire for marine applications is by far the most positive (pun) thing you can do.
It really annoys me that some top of the range, expensive marine equipment still comes with raw copper tails.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

The biggest issue (problem) with electrical systems on old boats is not the switching but the wiring. Copper wiring oxidises, goes black and crunchy the connections build up resistance that leads to further problems.

Could not have said it better - I guess this is exactly what I was trying to say in a fumbled way about my concerns over aged wiring in a salt water environment.

How does one check for this given the wire is encased in a plastic sheath? Ohm meter and check for resistance ?

And how much wire are we talking about in a rewire of a 42 ft yacht ?

I am considering removing the interior so I can do some major work on the tanks, make a battery room in the space behind the head that is currently used as a store room , possibly get a bit more room around the engine by taking some space from the aft quarter berth (it would mostly be used for storage anyway). Depends on the price shock for such work. I would like to update the interior very much - redo the galley etc. I have been told that this amount of interior work would be around 20K USD - if its that I would probably do it - for my own pleasure and enjoyment - plus I want to rework the tanks from one diesel tank and 2 fresh water tanks to 2 diesel tanks and one freshwater tank.

If and its a big IF at this point, I do remove all or some of the interior I would rewire the boat without a second thought as I would have clear access to every part of the interior. A new sole would be nice too - would freshen things up considerably and would be like the facelift laying a new floor at home brings about - who doesn't like that ? Of course how far does one go with all this?

The main thing is I have a tight aluminium hull with a retractable keel and a tiller steering system - it is exactly what I want - i just have a duff interior and poorly done battery/inverter system and need to beef up the alternator system and we all know what that entails and how much headache (and heartache??) that can be. So with all that, is redoing the rest of the electrical system that big a deal? Maybe it is. Perhaps I just dont realise what I am letting myself in for here. But I am going to at least explore the options and get a feel for what makes sense and what doesn't.

Again, great insight here re the KISS approach and not relying on a digital system. Thank you to all who have responded - it helps me in thinking it all through.

[mvweebles]

Attached picture shows a proper panel. Left side is, on this installation, the back door with backplane where wires are terminated (instead of terminating on the breakers themselves). Each termination on the left side door is labeled with the circuit it will service. This is best done with a custom made panel with a well-labeled backplane all assembled on a bench and relatively easily installed. Battery switches, shunts, and meters are all pre-wired. It takes a lot of time to design and manufacture a high quality panel and yes, it is incredibly intuitive and simple once executed properly. You are looking at at least $6k in panel costs alone before any installation or wiring. In my opinion, it's the backplane that makes this clean and simple, not the Blue Sea panel in front of it. If you totally rewire a 42 foot boat in a high quality and KISS manner (and by KISS, for electrical, I mean traceable, identifiable, and accessible circuits) , you are likely looking at close to $10k in wire, cable, panel, connectors, fuses, shunts, meters, etc. Plus installation. That's a high bar to justify to cure an ugly panel.

[mvweebles]

Picture of panel I referenced in previous post.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Attached picture shows a proper panel. Left side is, on this installation, the back door with backplane where wires are terminated (instead of terminating on the breakers themselves). Each termination on the left side door is labeled with the circuit it will service. This is best done with a custom made panel with a well-labeled backplane all assembled on a bench and relatively easily installed. Battery switches, shunts, and meters are all pre-wired. It takes a lot of time to design and manufacture a high quality panel and yes, it is incredibly intuitive and simple once executed properly. You are looking at at least $6k in panel costs alone before any installation or wiring. In my opinion, it's the backplane that makes this clean and simple, not the Blue Sea panel in front of it. If you totally rewire a 42 foot boat in a high quality and KISS manner (and by KISS, for electrical, I mean traceable, identifiable, and accessible circuits) , you are likely looking at close to $10k in wire, cable, panel, connectors, fuses, shunts, meters, etc. Plus installation. That's a high bar to justify to cure an ugly panel.

Very informative. Thanks for the insights. Totally agree that the backplane is what it is all about. The front panel is just visually pleasing and gives the opportunity to include monitors from the various manufacturers (Victron, Maretron,Kobelt, Sim marine etc) - its nice to see all the info presented on the monitors from these companies. Plus amp and volt meters.

Is it best to stick with analogue amp and volt meters or are digital displays for this OK ?

With the existing wiring - how does one check it for corrosion or any possible issues that may be hidden in the sheathing of the wire ?

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Picture of panel I referenced in previous post. Attachment 261809

I recently did a complete rewire of a 1976 Irwin 44.
Used a new Paneltronics panel and a bunch of BlueSea bits.
One thing I did was to break out all panel connections to BS fuse blocks
by way of extension umbilicals. No need to ever touch the panel again.
The fuse blocks were about 3 feet from the panel in a much more accessible
location. All breakers were either 15 or 20 amps. Fuses were sized to the
load. Belt and suspenders.
One other thing I did was bring fuse blocks to each cabin, each head,
and port and starboard in the main salon. A single positive and negative
cable to each.
All devices in those locations were then wired to theses blocks.
Works great and eliminated a tremendous amount of boat yoga routing and
pulling wires, which is what’s gonna hurt you.
Proper wire and connectors are key. (As well as using the proper tools
for crimping) Marinehowto.com has some good articles on this.
Check out Saillife on youtube, he spent 5 years doing what you propose
including digital switching
Cheers
Neil

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

Very informative. Thanks for the insights. Totally agree that the backplane is what it is all about. The front panel is just visually pleasing and gives the opportunity to include monitors from the various manufacturers (Victron, Maretron,Kobelt, Sim marine etc) - its nice to see all the info presented on the monitors from these companies. Plus amp and volt meters.



Is it best to stick with analogue amp and volt meters or are digital displays for this OK ?



With the existing wiring - how does one check it for corrosion or any possible issues that may be hidden in the sheathing of the wire ?

There are arguments and preferences for either digital or analog displays. Digital can be pretty bright but accurate. Adherents of analog often put an arrow (corner of tape or such) to show where "normal" should be. A goof analog gauge should have a truncated scale - tough to tell fine changes if the scale is 0-150 for example.

Best way I can think of to check your wiring is to look at the terminals. If they're green and showing corrosion, they are showing signs of resistance. Wire within the sheathing will be fine, just that last inch of so. Unlikely at thr panel, more likely at device end such as bilge pump due to moist environment. If there are signs of corrosion, you can check resistance and either cut back end of wire to good wire, or replace entire wire. An alternative would be to butt-connect a new piece of wire to replace the corroded end. Note that only tinned wire should be used, and all crimp connectors should be heat-shrink water resistant type connectors.

A couple ideas to clean up your wiring (though not your panel). First, the biggest changes since 1987 are boats now have more electronics, USB charging ports, etc. Often this has been jury rigged to add multiple terminals on to a breaker. A better idea is to run a heavier wire from the breaker to a fuse block that uses blade fuses. Then run spare circuits to each component and remove the inline fuse (if present). Picture below is a Blue Sea version. Personally, for electrical components, I will only use Blue Sea or a known reputable brand - there is ample evidence that the quality control of knock-offs is poor.

Second enhancement would be a quality inverter/charger. Victron systems with Bluetooth give you a ton of information on consumption, state of charge, etc.

Good luck

[goboatingnow]

I’m a fan of digital Panels , but I design and build my own so I know them in depth. They have electronic breakers that can be individually swapped out etc with mechanical fuse backups. They are designed to withstand 200V spikes etc. ( they survived my recent lightening strike but all my Victron gear failed)

Hence if know it intimately great , otherwise stick to mechanical breakers.

Design up a nice new look panel but fit standard breakers you can add fancy illuminated led legends etc. ( spray a white 3mm acrylic panel with black paint and laser etch ), my base panels cost 30 euros etc inc laser etching



( not the breaker one but illustrative )

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’m a fan of digital Panels , but I design and build my own so I know them in depth. They have electronic breakers that can be individually swapped out etc with mechanical fuse backups. They are designed to withstand 200V spikes etc. ( they survived my recent lightening strike but all my Victron gear failed)

Hence if know it intimately great , otherwise stick to mechanical breakers.

Design up a nice new look panel but fit standard breakers you can add fancy illuminated led legends etc. ( spray a white 3mm acrylic panel with black paint and laser etch ), my base panels cost 30 euros etc inc laser etching

Attachment 261837

( not the breaker one but illustrative )

great idea there - more detailed info would be great.

One strange anomaly in my circumstances - I wont be using any running lights - AT ALL. Its for security - total blackout needed. There are many bandits in my AO. That opens up a whole other can of worms - cameras on the mast - prefer thermal but that's lots of $$. Then there is always the threat of a lightning strike to take all the expensive electrics out - so a low light IP camera/s is probably the way to go. A lightning strike still hurts but a whole lot less when the cameras are $500 each instead of $5000 each.

Rather then a thermal camera on the mast I thought this may be a better way to go,

https://www.pulsar-nv.com/glo/produc...culars/merger/

The important figure for thermal is the NETD. The bino's referenced in the link above have a class leading NETD of 25mK.

Thermal is a great tech to have onboard but mounted on the mast makes me nervous. So hand held bino's like the above are the next best solution. I will always have a lookout on deck 24/7 - have to and just part of the cost to cruise here. Plus the Bino's referenced can stream via wifi to an android app - so can monitor from the salon/berth what the guard is looking at through the bino's up on deck. So the bino's at night can be used to scan around while also having starlight IP cameras on the mast - there are not that many dark nights in a month to deal with for the starlight cameras.

All of this comes under electrics. Its a good number of systems that all come together to make the total electrics package.

I read here somewhere (but now cant find it) that a wind transducer on the mast was best run as NEMA 183 then converted to N2K - so that a hit from a lightning strike could not travel along the whole N2K BUS. (ie, an N2K cable going up the mast to a wind transducer is a path into the whole N2K system). Does anyone have any insights on this aspect?

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

There are arguments and preferences for either digital or analog displays. Digital can be pretty bright but accurate. Adherents of analog often put an arrow (corner of tape or such) to show where "normal" should be. A goof analog gauge should have a truncated scale - tough to tell fine changes if the scale is 0-150 for example.

Best way I can think of to check your wiring is to look at the terminals. If they're green and showing corrosion, they are showing signs of resistance. Wire within the sheathing will be fine, just that last inch of so. Unlikely at thr panel, more likely at device end such as bilge pump due to moist environment. If there are signs of corrosion, you can check resistance and either cut back end of wire to good wire, or replace entire wire. An alternative would be to butt-connect a new piece of wire to replace the corroded end. Note that only tinned wire should be used, and all crimp connectors should be heat-shrink water resistant type connectors.

A couple ideas to clean up your wiring (though not your panel). First, the biggest changes since 1987 are boats now have more electronics, USB charging ports, etc. Often this has been jury rigged to add multiple terminals on to a breaker. A better idea is to run a heavier wire from the breaker to a fuse block that uses blade fuses. Then run spare circuits to each component and remove the inline fuse (if present). Picture below is a Blue Sea version. Personally, for electrical components, I will only use Blue Sea or a known reputable brand - there is ample evidence that the quality control of knock-offs is poor.

Second enhancement would be a quality inverter/charger. Victron systems with Bluetooth give you a ton of information on consumption, state of charge, etc.

Good luck Attachment 261813

Thanks for your thoughts MV WEEBLES.

Yes I totally agree - only top brand parts should be used on the electrical system. I have a 48v 5kVA Victron inverter here at home as power blackouts are a common occurrence here. I installed my Victron inverter in 2009. Its never once missed a beat. Its still going strong, although I do expect that in the next 3-4 years it will need replacing as the life of an inverter is supposedly 15 years or thereabouts. On my second bank of AGM's but the inverter itself is rock solid. Victron is good stuff. Buy quality and cry once.

Jury rigged is a thing on this boat. The previous owner self installed a N2K system. That's all well and good but I want to tidy that all up and run N2K through the whole boat. I need the electrics to be tight and solid.

I am trying to be philosophical about it all - what's better - spending your money on up to date electrics or sit in the dark and count your pile of cash by flashlight when the electrics have failed and let you down - again.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

I recently did a complete rewire of a 1976 Irwin 44.
Used a new Paneltronics panel and a bunch of BlueSea bits.
One thing I did was to break out all panel connections to BS fuse blocks
by way of extension umbilicals. No need to ever touch the panel again.
The fuse blocks were about 3 feet from the panel in a much more accessible
location. All breakers were either 15 or 20 amps. Fuses were sized to the
load. Belt and suspenders.
One other thing I did was bring fuse blocks to each cabin, each head,
and port and starboard in the main salon. A single positive and negative
cable to each.
All devices in those locations were then wired to theses blocks.
Works great and eliminated a tremendous amount of boat yoga routing and
pulling wires, which is what’s gonna hurt you.
Proper wire and connectors are key. (As well as using the proper tools
for crimping) Marinehowto.com has some good articles on this.
Check out Saillife on youtube, he spent 5 years doing what you propose
including digital switching
Cheers
Neil

That is some EXCELLANT wiring right there - that is very sexy. I hope I can find that quality in my neck of the woods. Some people "GET" wiring in panels/control boxes and others just dont seem to care for it one way or the other. Personally I appreciate a nicely wired control box/panel.

Looking at your photos of that wiring makes me feel all relaxed and calm lol. Something about the neat orderly layout and the symmetry in all that cabling.

However, given its now 2022 - would a digital switching system do away with a good deal of that wire ?

[Emmalina]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

The biggest issue (problem) with electrical systems on old boats is not the switching but the wiring. Copper wiring oxidises, goes black and crunchy the connections build up resistance that leads to further problems.
Using tinned wire for marine applications is by far the most positive (pun) thing you can do.
It really annoys me that some top of the range, expensive marine equipment still comes with raw copper tails.

Some quality old boats were wired with double insulated tinned copper wire ! IE mine LOL

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

I read here somewhere (but now cant find it) that a wind transducer on the mast was best run as NEMA 183 then converted to N2K - so that a hit from a lightning strike could not travel along the whole N2K BUS. (ie, an N2K cable going up the mast to a wind transducer is a path into the whole N2K system). Does anyone have any insights on this aspect?

It’s irelevant , my recent lightening strike vapourised the ray wind instrument , the spike coupled down the non 2K transducer wiring blew across the comms chip in the sT60 wind instrument , coupled into the Seatalk 1 bus , blew across into the SEATALK NG ( 2k) converter and took out all the devices connected to the nmea 2000 bus.

It also coupled into the DC bus and took out all the Victron gear, the AP arm clutch and the rotor and regulator of the alternator , my own electronics handled the DC bus spike and survived ( as did all the cheap Chinese less fittings , all 25 of them !! And the cheap Chinese invertor )

Hence I believe it doesn’t make a rats arse what you run up the mast

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s irelevant , my recent lightening strike vapourised the ray wind instrument , the spike coupled down the non 2K transducer wiring blew across the comms chip in the sT60 wind instrument , coupled into the Seatalk 1 bus , blew across into the SEATALK NG ( 2k) converter and took out all the devices connected to the nmea 2000 bus.

It also coupled into the DC bus and took out all the Victron gear, the AP arm clutch and the rotor and regulator of the alternator

Hence I believe it doesn’t make a rats arse what you run up the mast

So then, N2K up the mast is fine. No need to worry about the NEMA183 thing?

Ok, so then the only protection from lightning is to unplug everything when you see a storm approaching. May not be practical out to sea when you need everything running, but at dock or on anchor it may be practical ?