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24-05-2023, 12:47
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Soon sailing from New Orleans to Key West then Caribbean
Boat: Pacific Seacraft, Orion 27
Posts: 214
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Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
As I move toward tying the 10000 project together for a near term launch I am starting to look more closely at the bonding system. Some parts of my Orion 27 are connected to the system, some not.
Does every shroud need to be connected or is just one sufficient? How about every through hull if the system is connected to the motor? I’m told I can just connect a chain to one shroud and let it hang into the water to make up for shrouds not connected.
My new aft stay has ssb isolators for a future radio and I have the large plate attached to the hull for this and a zinc on my prop shaft.
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24-05-2023, 13:26
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#2
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always in motion is the future
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 19,065
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maury
As I move toward tying the 10000 project together for a near term launch I am starting to look more closely at the bonding system. Some parts of my Orion 27 are connected to the system, some not.
Does every shroud need to be connected or is just one sufficient? How about every through hull if the system is connected to the motor? I’m told I can just connect a chain to one shroud and let it hang into the water to make up for shrouds not connected.
My new aft stay has ssb isolators for a future radio and I have the large plate attached to the hull for this and a zinc on my prop shaft.
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You now mentioned three separate systems: lightning protection, AC power ground protection and HF radio ground. Without steep learning curves, you would do great by just bringing the system back to original; I’m sure there’s a manual or owners forum that knows the boat and it’s systems
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.
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24-05-2023, 14:14
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#3
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,151
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
You are delving into murky waters.
PM me an email address and I'll respond with the appropriate ABYC Standards.
They will cause you to lose sleep
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
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24-05-2023, 15:17
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Soon sailing from New Orleans to Key West then Caribbean
Boat: Pacific Seacraft, Orion 27
Posts: 214
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Original? I have all kinds of blueprints etc and photos from group but none covering this issue. I bought boat mid renovation so regretfully don’t have benefit of prior knowledge. Except a heap of wires with a link 2000 etc.which is now out.. If it’s that complicated I will cancel the question and just do the best I can by guessing.
I don’t plan to tie 120v into the 12v system but will have a few outlets and a breaker going to an Eastern Marine ac heater / air conditioning unit. I have that all green to common ground and have not installed yet but have a Zinc Saver 2 by Yacht Corrosion systems for this system which I have not studied up on yet.
The Plate is for the Ham radio from what I understand is Radio ground for future SSB connection and was with boat already.
My main concern with the question is with lightening protection but I elaborated various protection systems for background info in case they pertain.
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24-05-2023, 15:25
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Soon sailing from New Orleans to Key West then Caribbean
Boat: Pacific Seacraft, Orion 27
Posts: 214
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
As for ABYC standards, burr, sounds chilling. I guess I am looking for a decent workable solution without getting a phd which I feel I have already done a few times on this boat renovation project. If your standing as a professional prevents sharing this kind of information I understand and appreciate the insight you have already shared and offered.
Since I am presently resetting seacocks I thought it was an appropriate time for this question.
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25-05-2023, 00:48
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#6
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always in motion is the future
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 19,065
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maury
As for ABYC standards, burr, sounds chilling. I guess I am looking for a decent workable solution without getting a phd which I feel I have already done a few times on this boat renovation project. If your standing as a professional prevents sharing this kind of information I understand and appreciate the insight you have already shared and offered.
Since I am presently resetting seacocks I thought it was an appropriate time for this question.
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Do you have bronze (not brass) seacocks? If so, then I recommend you remove all bonding wires from them.
For lighting protection, you need a special grounding plate under the hull below the mast (one that is rated for lightning protection… most are not and may explode with a direct hit!) and a single, large diameter wire (6 AWG) from that plate straight up (no sharp bends) to the mast.
That’s it. Wires connected to rigging are for personal safety around AC power. For that, I recommend you install an isolation transformer, after which you can remove all those bonding wires from stanchions, winches etc.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.
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25-05-2023, 02:57
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 656
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Purely by coincidence the last two issues ( 202 & 203) of Professional Boatbuilder magazine have articles written by Nigel Calder regarding lightning protection.
Not sure if they are freely available or whether you have to subscribe. I have included the links, so if they work, all well and good.
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25-05-2023, 04:58
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#8
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: May 2021
Boat: Passport 41
Posts: 385
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevead
Purely by coincidence the last two issues ( 202 & 203) of Professional Boatbuilder magazine have articles written by Nigel Calder regarding lightning protection.
Not sure if they are freely available or whether you have to subscribe. I have included the links, so if they work, all well and good.
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The links work, but they're both to issue 203. Any chance you can share the one for issue 202?
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25-05-2023, 05:07
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Flagler County, FL, USA, Earth
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 1,508
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
..
For lighting protection, you need a special grounding plate under the hull below the mast (one that is rated for lightning protection… most are not and may explode with a direct hit!) and a single, large diameter wire (6 AWG) from that plate straight up (no sharp bends) to the mast.
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THere is a fair amount of evidence that you don't want to 'steer' lightning current far below the waterline. You want to "encourage" lightning current to discharge right at the waterline. Several sailboats that run heavy wire bottom of mast to the metal keel suffer a side discharge thru the hull at waterline. sometimes resulting in a sinking. If you think about it, the charged cloud overhead will draw electrons at sea surface. Its that surface charge that want to move electrons, not subsea water.
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25-05-2023, 05:18
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 656
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Sorry, perhaps a dyslexic copy-n-paste.
Here's the link to issue 202.
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25-05-2023, 05:47
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#11
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: May 2021
Boat: Passport 41
Posts: 385
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevead
Sorry, perhaps a dyslexic copy-n-paste.
Here's the link to issue 202.
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This link requires one to login. The other one worked because it included an access token (a long string of letters/digits). So it looks like these articles are subscriber-only
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25-05-2023, 05:48
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#12
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,578
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
See also “Sailing in lightning: how to keep your yacht safe” ~ by Nigel Calder with Katy Stickland
How much of a concern is a lightning strike to a yacht and what can we do about it? Nigel Calder looks at what makes a full ‘belt and braces’ lightning protection system
Free ➥ https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear...cht-safe-87883
And a video decribing Caulder’s take on Lightning Protection for Boats
➥
And some other ‘older’ articles on Lightning Protection:
➥ Articles
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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25-05-2023, 05:48
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Soon sailing from New Orleans to Key West then Caribbean
Boat: Pacific Seacraft, Orion 27
Posts: 214
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
My seacocks are old Groco bronze and the plate I reference above is a large size Dynaplate Guest but from what I understand it is for ssb radio ground. I see a flat copper going from stern presently unconnected to Dynaplate and somewhere forward.
I noticed both article links are to the same edition, will try to access the first in another way.
On my Orion 27 with a deck step mast it appears as though the very bottom of the keel is one big solid I assumed lead piece. As for any wires between the two I could only assume and hope whatever was there is still there since it is not accessible without demolition.
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25-05-2023, 08:33
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Soon sailing from New Orleans to Key West then Caribbean
Boat: Pacific Seacraft, Orion 27
Posts: 214
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
After watching the link for Nigels interview a next video was https://youtu.be/PurMG7KHdW4 Clark from Emily and Clark and he talks about connecting everything to help it dissipate boat as easily as possible. Also using a static dissipator on top of mast to scatter the field.
I know the seacock connection is contra to what sv Jedi recommends. Jedi , why not bronze connection?
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25-05-2023, 09:10
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Virginia, USA
Boat: Tayana 37
Posts: 996
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Re: Does every shroud need to be bonding connected?
Quote:
Originally Posted by maury
After watching the link for Nigels interview a next video was https://youtu.be/PurMG7KHdW4 Clark from Emily and Clark and he talks about connecting everything to help it dissipate boat as easily as possible. Also using a static dissipator on top of mast to scatter the field.
I know the seacock connection is contra to what sv Jedi recommends. Jedi , why not bronze connection?
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You are talking about lightning? A thruhull (we are talking thruhull not seacock right) is simply too small very likely it will blow the thruhull right out the boat.
Honestly lighting protection is a bit of a voodoo science. Even with ideal protection lighthing is highly variable. There is no good way to test it in a controlled manner give the huge range on conditions and power levels.
Still the general idea is a large at least one square foot copper or copper alloy metal panel on the outside of the hull with large cables going from past to that panel connected with silicon bronze thrubolts. You should not use dynaplate (HF ground plate) it is essentially foamed metal and lighting will instantly vaporize the internal water quite explosively. Edges need to be 90 degrees and should be exposed not tapered into the hull. Very high voltage discharge happens at the sharp edges not the faces of a panel. We can't really control lightning all we can do is give it a low resistance path and hope it takes it.
Honestly the best foolproof lightning protection system is insurance. I would not however run a lightning conductor to a thruhull. Probably a good way of blowing a large hole in your boat below the waterline that otherwise wouldn't happen.
The challenge with talking about ground/bonding is there are at least four different concepts which might apply on a boat and they have different purposes: AC safety ground/earth, Galvanic Protection Bonding, Lighting Protection & Radio Groundplane.
You said this upstream
Quote:
I don’t plan to tie 120v into the 12v system but will have a few outlets and a breaker going to an Eastern Marine ac heater / air conditioning unit.
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I don't know about ISO but by ABYC standards this is prohibited. AC ground needs to be tied to DC. If you don't have an isolation transformer the shorepower ground connection should also be tied in.
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