Designing new panels for our boat

[Ryban]

This thread is meant to track progress of this project from start to finish, and get feedback and guidance along the way.

Our current layout was inherited, and is not great. Basically it's two separate panels on top-down opening cabins that, within, contain the hose that leads the starboard side deck drains overboard, soo if this ever developed a leak, it would spell bad news immediately for our electrical system. It's also dated, out of code on the AC side, and just in need of a fresh start.



Here's notionally where the new panel would go instead. Note the panel design is extremely crude at the monet and has a long way to go. The VHF will be re-located, and the two cabinets on the right will be re-converted back to storage. This will also reduce the amount of inadvertent switch flipping that can happen, especially when the pilot berth is in use.




The new panel will have a lot of area available for breakers/switches/systems monitoring. I haven't decided yet how I want to use this space, which is why the panel is mostly empty still in the notional design. I do like the idea of having a diagram of the boat with indicator lights for what external lights are on -- sometimes helpful, but also just an aesthetic choice. We will also likely replace all our seacocks on our next hull-out, as they are old (but great) Grocos that are hard to find parts for anymore. If we replace them, we will likely use TruDesign synthetic valves with position monitoring, in which case I will add the indicators to our electrical panel.



I haven't decided where to put the VenusOS/raspberrypi display. It's kind of nice to have, but it also feeds into our main ship computer for systems monitoring via SignalK so it's also a little redundant and takes up a lot of space, so we'll see.

Here's an early version of our dashboard still in work that is consuming the VenusOS data:

[Ryban]

Worked on the design a bit more, converging closer to something that has what we need, and not too much extra. I left 4 breakers open for future expansions/additions. I would like to add a switch the the AC panel -- I currently have a 2 pole breaker there to break both the neutral and hot wires. Having an additional switch to enable/disable the outlets on the boat (e.g. when powered by the inverter) would also be nice.

Here's the latest mock-up with the breakers/LEDs/BM/etc photoshopped over the design:


Here it is as it would be on the boat:

[s/v Jedi]

I recommend you first look at your electrical installation and decide on updating and improving that because it will make changes to the panels.

Find threads started by me on installations and custom panels, how and where to get them etc.

Picture is our new setup limited by an 8” height.

[Ryban]

That's good advice. Most of the upgrades we're making are on the power/battery side of the equation (additional solar, solar chargers, LiFePO4). We've also added quite a few systems/instruments, like a new radar, a dedicated navigation computer running OpenCPN/SignalK, a Pi running VenusOS, a second autopilot, and a few other things.

We may add some more instruments or DC loads (hence the openings on the panel), but I can't think too much of what we might add that would substantially change the layout of the panel. Maybe I'm just not fully considering everything.

I do think I will move the AC stuff off this panel though and onto it's own dedicated panel.

Edit: Are you planning to have a separate battery monitor on each one of your battery banks?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Ryban

That's good advice. Most of the upgrades we're making are on the power/battery side of the equation (additional solar, solar chargers, LiFePO4). We've also added quite a few systems/instruments, like a new radar, a dedicated navigation computer running OpenCPN/SignalK, a Pi running VenusOS, a second autopilot, and a few other things.

We may add some more instruments or DC loads (hence the openings on the panel), but I can't think too much of what we might add that would substantially change the layout of the panel. Maybe I'm just not fully considering everything.

I do think I will move the AC stuff off this panel though and onto it's own dedicated panel.

Edit: Are you planning to have a separate battery monitor on each one of your battery banks?

Example: create an isolated DC supply for electronics with surge suppression, see attached diagram. I’m using a small 18Ah battery and isolated dc-dc converters, one a backup for the other.
You can see a little mockup of a panel to control this and that has become part of my main DC panel, lower left corner.

Even with 12V house batteries this gives huge advantages like a stable voltage, ability to run from isolated battery during lightning storms etc.

On battery monitors: yes, every battery or battery bank must have it’s own monitor. The distinction is the main switch to isolate the battery or bank. So when you have two batteries in parallel behind a battery switch then it’s just one monitor.

The reason is that you need to monitor the battery regardless of switch positions. I have a 10kWh 24V bank that has two LiTime 24V 200Ah batteries in parallel on one monitor. Then a 10kWh 24V battery from eight Winston 400Ah cells in series on another monitor. And lastly a 12V 100Ah AGM battery for 12V loads incl. engine start that has the third monitor.

You may wonder how to configure the Cerbo GX with multiple house battery monitors… it’s simple: the load side of the two shunts connect to the battery side of a SmartShunt. The load side of the SmartShunt connects to the main negative busbar. You configure the SmartShunt for whatever you switch online. The AUX input of the SmartShunt measures the 12V battery voltage.

I don’t even connect the BMV’s to the Cerbo, but I do connect the relays of them to a terminal strip where I can quickly setup things like controlling solar charging on/off based of the relay status. I can program the BMV to trigger the relay at SOC% etc.

Also, I have remote on/off switches for solar controllers and DC-DC converters on my main DC panel. I use small latching switches to save space and use these for navigation lights as well, with a single push button fuse.

[sailingharry]

I am a counter culture, negative cynic, so feel free to ignore me.


But, I'm going to grumble anyway.


i personally think that the ubiquitous boat silhouette with a couple LED's on it really sells well at the boat show, but provides about zero useful data for the huge amount of space it takes. Yours, for instance, has indicators for maybe 6 lights, of which several are pairs. And remember, you have little indicator lights on each breaker.


Really, does showing a light for the port/starboard running lights add any value? The ability to glance over and see it on? But you don't have one for the propane solenoid, or the bilge pump running, or the AIS transmitter, or.... you get the idea.


You seem to be showing a light for several through hulls. Are they going to have sensors wired on to them to actually show the position? And will you need to look at the panel to remember if the sink drain is open? If you are a "close them all every time you are in port" kind of guy, then before you get under way you'll open them all. If you are a "what's a thru hull" kind of guy -- how would they ever get moved? Either way, looking at an indicator light has little value.


I don't have any useful input on the rest -- I just get all irritated when I see that graphic.


Rant off......

[scherzoja]

Ryban,

Take you time designing your panel and whatever wires you're going to pull because you will likely encounter the "Oh, Sh!t" moment when you realized that you should have done this or done that to make things easier. The posts by other CF'ers who have done this have some useful information and as you think of additional features, you will run into the wall of limited space.

I went through this over the last couple of years redoing all my wiring and ended up with a system that is easy to use, but has a wiring schematic that is quite complicated.

Attached are pictures of the panels I made and some of the wiring. There are many ways to accomplish "boat wiring" and designs range from simple to overly complicated.

When I started the complete rewiring, the concept is began with is not where it ended. This design evolved as I progressed until I ended up with what I have, which is a system that is relatively easy to use, but the wiring behind the panels is a bit on the complicated end of the spectrum.

The basic panels are two: Blue Seas DC panel with 35 slots and a Blue Seas AC panel with 8 slots + double pole breaker.

In addition to these, I designed (Front Panel Express) a "switch panel", which has toggle switches for groupings of lights and pumps. This panel is on just inside the companionway and it's prioritized from top right to bottom left. When I reach in the companion way, I can get to the fuel delivery system so I can easily change which system feeds the engine ( I have redundant main engine fuel deliver system). I have to step into the galley to change some valves if the main engine filter/pump fail, but the the pumps are right at the top of the switch panel. Note that almost every switch has an LED to indicate that it's powered up. You might consider this instead of the diagram of the boat because you might find a better use of that panel real estate.

The other groupings, again, descending in priority as you go down and to the left (in the view of the attached images) are Bilge Pumps, Navigation Lights, then Deck Lights. I have room for future expansion.

I also have a separate panel for the windlass and is a catch-all for things I forgot to add to the Switch Panel (bilge pump resettable breakers, a toggle for low-luminosity aisle lights along the cabin sole). For the windlass, I have the breaker, a 2-pole switch that disconnects the positive and negative cables that go to the windlass, and the fuse for the low current wire that goes to the switches (Maxwell VWC 1500). As you can see, the Switch Panel and this Windlass Panel look very different because I didn't have the forethought to design it into the Switch panel.

I have a few other panels that contain toggle switches in different parts of the boat. For example, I have a panel in the galley that has toggle switches for lights over there (lights in cabinets, light in fridge, lights over the sink and over bridge desk, as well as the propane solenoid and it's LED indicator). This is another Front Panel Express panel. I have a few other panels that contain toggle switches in different parts of the boat. These are just varnished wood panels with switches in them.

Because of the way this project evolved, I wasted a lot of time rerouting wires and removing cabinets to run more cables. In the end, there are many feet of wires running around the boat, but using the panels is easy because they are all clearly labeled.

The other aspect of this project was ensuring that all wires have the correct overcurrent protection and are the right size for ampacity and < 3% voltage drop (I have a spreadsheet that has every wire run and its properties). Complicating all this is that there are several circuits that are unswitched (bilge pumps, aisle lights, charging sources, and a few others) that are wired differently from the switched devices, but their actual toggle switches are on the same panels as the switched devices.

Lastly (at least for this post), if you have a separate starting battery, can you easily switch the system to you can use the start battery to power the house side and use the house battery to start the engine?

Don't shy away from complicated wiring if it makes using the system easier

PS. This was all mostly built out before I saw Jedi's "hardened" system diagrams.

[rdempsey]

Whats under the red lockout cover ?

[scherzoja]

It's a toggle for the strobe on the masthead. When I placed the "strobe" label on the design diagram in Front Panel Express, I forgot to account for the size of the lockout cover.

[Bowdrie]

Warning, this is purely subjective.
A way to conserve main panel space is to run a length of heavier wire to a sub-panel for all the lights on the mast.
The Westsail, with its positioning of the mast step in relation to the head bulkhead makes it a simple job to have a sub-panel on that bulkhead.

[s/v Jedi]

When you start working with the CAD software from FrontpanelExpress then take some time to get familiar with it and find all it’s features.

I was not impressed with the graphics features, labeling, fonts available etc. so I used another program to create all that and import it into FrontpanelExpress.

As an example, here’s my main DC panel during assembly when the dimmable lights turn on first time

[SV_FlyingTigress]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

When you start working with the CAD software from FrontpanelExpress then take some time to get familiar with it and find all it’s features.

I was not impressed with the graphics features, labeling, fonts available etc. so I used another program to create all that and import it into FrontpanelExpress.

As an example, here’s my main DC panel during assembly when the dimmable lights turn on first time

SV Jedi,


Where did you get the push buttons for your lights in your panel with the lit halo ring. I have them on my Privilege cat but have been frustrated finding them online.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Stephen_MO

SV Jedi,

Where did you get the push buttons for your lights in your panel with the lit halo ring. I have them on my Privilege cat but have been frustrated finding them online.

Note that there are different models, for example latching and momentary and I use both for different applications. In either case the LED ring has separate contacts.

The ones on the panel are small. I also use larger ones. Some examples here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083QMF2HW

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DFMWH6V

The larger ones are $10 each and the smaller ones are two for $10. Not bad for weatherproof switches with 3-year warranty

Edit: they are marketed as 12V only. This is because there is a current limiting resistor internally for the LED that is scaled for 12V. It’s easy to add another additional resistor externally for 24V. I also added panel dimmers for these.

Good oanel dimmers are expensive and they normally go in the negative conductor. Here is what I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085TK13SH
These are all aluminum and waterproof.

[sailingharry]

OK, my first post was a completely unhelpful rant. But I actually do have useful thoughts too.....


* A couple posts up-thread showed logical groupings of switches. On my boat, there is a complete lack of logic. For instance, I have a series of breakers that go Nav/Stereo/Foredeck/Steaming/Anchor/Tricolor. That's not grouped well. Think about "Groupings."


* A few pictures have shown switches, not breakers. Switches are much smaller and easier to move around. The norm is breakers, which are huge and hard to move. Of course, if you use switches, you need to put the breakers somewhere.


* Think about how much granularity you need. I have two breakers feeding cockpit lights, one for the compass and one for the floor lights. Both go to switches at the instrument panel. I would use a single breaker. Some might say "redundancy" but that doesn't make sense here -- a short in the floor lights can be isolated by turning off the switch. Or my cabin lights -- I have 8 breakers controlling cabin lighting, all of which are then controlled by switches (some of that may be historical, when cabin lights were incandescent and drew more power). But a single breaker with two switches (or maybe a single 3-position switch?) would be sufficient for running lights and steaming light, for instance.


* Bilge pumps should not have an "off" position. Yes, a breaker somewhere. But the classic switch of "On-off-auto" makes it super easy to push to on, release, and leave it in off. The switch should be a momentary "on" and when released returns to auto (which is actually no connection). The breaker should be hidden from accidental operation. Think back -- in the last 6 months, how many times have you wanted the bilge pump in "off." Me? Can't recall ever.



I won't redo mine just because it's not how I would do it, but I could easily remove 8 or 10 of the 36 breakers in my DC panel, reducing complexity and improving ergonomics.

[Blewbird]

A bilge pump control switch with "auto-off-manual" is a good idea. I had an owner call me frantic because he had ruptured an oil bottle in the bilge and was afraid it would pump overboard before I could get there to clean it up. Because I had recently replaced his bilge pump system I knew he could simply turn it off at the switch. A green led indictor connected to the automatic leg of the switch indicates a ready bilge pump.