Balmer 6 Series Alternator - Who Makes It?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

If you buy from E-Maax stay on top of it and document all conversations in case you slip through a crack. I find email best..

You can do all of that, but at the end of the day when their product has proven to be a piece of junk, they will bully you, call you names and threaten to sue you. When you hit them with direct proof from an outside professional that their equipment is a failure, they then refuse to take any responsibility and simply tell you to come to Canada and sue them.

I speak from personal experience. I would rather deal with Xantrex 100 times over than ever deal with that company again.

Liars, cheats and thieves.

Besides, even if my experience is a one-off (it's not, I can name you others), do you really want to deal with a company where you have to stand on top of them and document all conversations just because they keep letting things slip through the cracks and putting the onus back on you to prove where you stand with them?

Now let me tell you about my completely opposite experiences with Balmar…

Mark

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by colemj

You can do all of that, but at the end of the day when their product has proven to be a piece of junk, they will bully you, call you names and threaten to sue you. When you hit them with direct proof from an outside professional that their equipment is a failure, they then refuse to take any responsibility and simply tell you to come to Canada and sue them.

I speak from personal experience. I would rather deal with Xantrex 100 times over than ever deal with that company again.

Liars, cheats and thieves.

Besides, even if my experience is a one-off (it's not, I can name you others), do you really want to deal with a company where you have to stand on top of them and document all conversations just because they keep letting things slip through the cracks and putting the onus back on you to prove where you stand with them?

Now let me tell you about my completely opposite experiences with Balmar…

Mark

Mark,

I can honestly say that has still not been my experience. The big problem is that IF you want a serpentine kit there are only two games currently in-town Alt-Mount / Balmar (but these only fit Yanmar and is still not a complete line) and Electromaax. If you want a serpentine kit, and they are worth their weight in gold, then it will be Electromaax unless you have a Yanmar. I really dislike dual pulleys so when driving high loads the only option for me is a serpentine kit.

That said you can buy Electromaax serpentine kits through Balmar and let Balmar back the product. Probably not a bad choice as they ALWAYS have someone there to answer a question!

Balmar sells the Electromaax serpentine kits and they now own Alt-Mount so you really don't ever need to deal with E-Maax, if you don't want to.. As it is I install Balmar products more than any other, including my own brand. Why? Because they just do it so well over and over and over again. I buy most of my serp kits through Balmar these days though I have an E-Maax order sitting in my shop now.

FWIW I have yet to have a failure of an E-Maax alt though I do feel the Balmar and Mark Grasser alts are better executed.

I agree 200% about Balmar's level of service & support, literally some of the best in the entire industry, but I still find myself using Electromaax too....

The thing with Balmar is their pricing turns many boat owners off opening the door for companies with less aggressive pricing structures.. Some just don't see the value in after sale support or what they have done or how they build their alts or how damn good their regs are or how they are always pushing the performance envelope such as with the new AT series hairpin wound alts.

When you combine the whole enchilada Balmar is still the best value IME and IMHO. E-Maax may be less expensive and in the real world this matters A LOT to some. This is why I still throw it out there as an option, and because they make all the serpentine kits.

Rich's story is pretty enlightening though and I am hearing it from more than one source hence my suggestion to dot the i's and cross the t's if you choose E-Maax...

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Rich's story is pretty enlightening though and I am hearing it from more than one source hence my suggestion to dot the i's and cross the t's if you choose E-Maax...

It is one thing to have a few unhappy customers, since the customer part of the equation can reasonably often be called into doubt. It is quite another for one company to go into a professional business venture with another company, only to be ripped off and copied and competed with against signed agreements.

I discussed this plagiarism issue with Balmar when I had both EM's and Balmars 6-series manuals in front of me and they were word-for-word and illustrationally identical! Including instructions and drawings for parts that didn't even exist on the EM, or were in different places! Balmar laughed and said they were directly copied and they knew about it, but were unconcerned about the competition because they had taken these EM units apart and there were serious flaws in them. Mark Grasser used to work with EM when I was having my problems with their alternator and he contacted me privately to tell me there were design problems with the wiring in them that was causing my problems, but EM had a gag on him about it. He left EM with no good feelings about that relationship. Have you talked to Mark?

Setting aside my, and other customers complaints, if you read and believe only Rich's experience of going into business with that company and still do business with them, then your ethical standards are different than mine.

Mark

[evm1024]

(Not wishing to hyjack the thread...)

I have a 10 year old or so Balmar 91 series alt. Looks to be a 100 amp model on a perkins 4.236.

I expect to convert to serpentine belt and a new alternator in about 3 years. Likely it will drive 4 L16 with a few hundred watts solar.

There is not a lot of info on the 91 series. Who was the base alt maker, reliability, etc. any comments?

Regards

[SVRapture40]

I will chime in and say that Balmar has given me some of the best customer support I have gotten anywhere! Even months after the sale they were there for me. I had an issue that turned out to be a configuration problem on my end and had nothing to do with any of the Balmar equipment that I installed on my boat last summer. The Balmar tech spent two days on the phone/email with me trying to help me sort it out. Then at the end he says "No worries on what the problem was, I am just glad that we got it sorted out for you".

Tech details - I installed a 170 amp AT series alternator last summer with a Balmar smart regulator and could not possibly be happier! Would do it again the exact same way in a heartbeat.

[SV THIRD DAY]

An ElectroMaax client Chris could not get any assistance from ElectroMaax for their alternator failures (new out of the Box). Chris spent months trouble shooting with ElectroMaax and after being told in an email (that I have seen) that the problem was not with the alternator but with the clients installation, Chris contacted me knowing that I had once had a relationship with ElectroMaax hoping I could help. I recommended that they send the alternator into Mark Grasser for trouble shooting and repair. Below is what Mark found when he took the alternator apart.




Chris I received your alternator today. So far this is what I have found.

Frist the way the internal wiring was done, despite following the directions for installing the external regulator the alternator control is coming from the internal 2 stage regulator. There are many electromaax clients out there thinking that their alternator is being controled by their external 4 stage regulator and would be surprised to know that the internal 2 stage build into the alternator is actually controlling the alternator..

I ran it up on the test bench and the voltage stabilized at 15 volts. The regulator is a 14.8 volt regulator. I was a little surprised by the 15.0 volts, highest I have seen. We will replace it with a regulator rated at 14.1 volts becasue this could damage your battery bank.



Before disassembly I took this photo. The cooling fins for the rectifier are blocked by the wiring that is added by Electromaax. Fairly common of the alternators I have seen from them. This will all be replaced by a component PCB and Teflon coated wiring.



Another fairly common problem we have seen. The pulley they use is too thick for the length of the shaft. We will turn the pulley down so there is full shaft into the nut. The pulley will still be 0.600” thick.



Removing the rear cover exposed these two wires not connected to where they should be. This is a first for me. These wires are from the Stator output coils and feed the D+ diodes. There is a lot of current available here to short with!



The front bearing is not peened into place. I have seen this before also. When the bearing slides into the alternator the front pulley scrapes on the front frame of the alternator.






The fins must have been hiting the case because it is cast or maybe machined wrong, so electromaax beat them out of the way. This will of course hurt the cooling air flow.

[DeepFrz]

I just thought I would post this link to a video made by Maine Sail in 2012. Have you changed your opinion since then Maine Sail?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0ijf...ature=youtu.be

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I just thought I would post this link to a video made by Maine Sail in 2012. Have you changed your opinion since then Maine Sail?

As I said I have not had the problems Mark Grasser has seen or Rich. I am also not saying these issues don't exist I just don't know to what extent. Perhaps I have been lucky but I have never had issues or a failure with an E-Maax alt..?

I have taken mine apart and tweaked some wiring like Mark has done. I have also seen one in Marks shop that was in for repair and it had bent fins. After this I pulled my own alternator apart but found no issues except for a couple of wires laying on the diode rack and a crimp terminal I though was poorly executed. My alt was not wired so the internal reg was taking control nor have any of my customers alts been... I have to suspect they may have made some changes to wiring since some of the early alts.

I will say that I have conversed with them over some issues I would like to see changed addressed and promises have been made but the changes are very slow to come through. For example I suggested that the alt be supplied with a pig tail plug to make wiring more eloquent and seamless for the customer. As of my last alt it was not done. I also began asking early on for isolated ground and they still don't offer that unless you specifically ask for it.. They also very often double ship alternator pulleys and this is a simple cost saving measure that should be addressed and I don't know if it has been. John has asked me for feedback as an installer and I have given it yet seen little done.... That's okay I have been bugging Xantrex now for nearly 5 years to correct all the mistakes in the Echo Charge manual and they have done SQUAT.....

My tweaked Electromaax has been charging a LiFePO4 bank so if there were going to be issues I suppose I might have seen them by now.

The alt in the video is still going strong, charging 400Ah of TPPL batteries and has none of the issues mentioned. That bank takes gobs of current...

I can only call them as I see them and I have not had any bad alts from E-Maax. Are they as well executed as a Balmar or Grasser, no not from what I have seen, but they are also not as expensive as a Balmar and many sailors do shop with their wallets so I mention them as an option. Alternators run the gammut price and quality wise E-Maax plays a decent value/$$ card, unless you've been burned by them of course....

All the alts I have installed hit their ratings and I have yet to see one dead out of the box or not put out what it should. Could I? I am fairly certain anything can slip through the cracks.

Rich's story really hit home this morning and if true, which I have no reason to doubt it would be, I find it utterly horrifying.

Either way I will have to continue using serpentine kits and E-Maax is really the only game in town for engines other than Yanmar. I still buy the majority of my kits through Balmar even though E-Maax made them..

Mark Grasser is tooling up for serpentine kits and I know myself and Rich keep bugging him about it. When he gets his kits in a row this will be a much easier solution for me as his shop is not far away, I can drive there in short order, and Mark is a great guy to boot.

As I have said before I use what fits for the job. Most often it is Balmar, sometimes my own brand and sometimes E-Maax. I had three or four Yanmar conversions I wanted to give to Mark earlier in the year but he did not have his 3.15" saddle mount for Yanmars ready yet.... I think Marks alts are well built and executed. A lot of what I have been doing lately are the new Balmar AT series. Pretty impressive little alts....

That is all I can say. I can see that John has certainly burned some bridges over the last few years but I have not been personally caught up in it. I do warn folks about dealing with them and their communications issues and to be patient. I warned Rusty123, a poster in this thread, before this thread devolved in to an E-Maax spiral...

Sadly I do not have to mention those things about Balmar and I would not have to with Mark Grasser either... You really can't go wrong with either of them.

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Balmar, Electromaax and Mark Grasser all produce marine HO alts based on the Delco 130D case. The important thing here is "based on" the 130D. These alts are then drastically tweaked from the automotive versions to produce better low RPM output, top quality magnet wire, tighter tolerances, high copper content brushes, better heat dissipation, heavy duty diodes, bigger and better bearings, the ability to run either internal or external regulation, isolated ground etc. etc..

kind of.
you can get all these parts together yourself.
basically you would need.
brushes, bearings, new rectifiers, and thats it. i would use a balmar external regulator thou. i would also keep the rectifier outside the case, and in a fan cooled box. you could stick the balmar in there as well.
there is no way that its worth $1600, even with these minor upgrades.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by scoobert

kind of.
you can get all these parts together yourself.
basically you would need.
brushes, bearings, new rectifiers, and thats it. i would use a balmar external regulator thou. i would also keep the rectifier outside the case, and in a fan cooled box. you could stick the balmar in there as well.
there is no way that its worth $1600, even with these minor upgrades.

$1600.00??????? What 130D based alt is $1600.00? Mark Grasser sells an excellent 100A alt for $529.00.... You can bump to a 140A for $679.00. Balmar is more money but nowhere near $1600.00 for a 130D based alt.......

Who is going to cast your back case for a Yanmar saddle mount, for the larger bearings, make the parts for isolated ground, side mount terminals etc. etc..

Who is going to cast your front case with universal ear?

Where are you going to source a stator & rotor that is optimized for low RPM output?

Who will wind them for you?

Where are you going to find a way to make a 130D marine rated for spark?

How much will those approvals cost you?

How are you going to execute the 130D for external regulation?

How will you execute the stator tap?

The D+?

If you know please let me know cause if I can build them myself for less than Mark or Balmar or E-Max will sell them to me I would love to. I have personally watched Marks progress in developing these. I have developed my own line of alts too. It took him nearly two years to develop the case to fit a Hitachi mount. I use an excellent builder for mine and they build to my specs. Trust me when I say those of us selling marine alts are NOT getting rich. Hell I make more money selling other peoples alts than I do with my own brand.....

Yes you can buy car parts but you get a car alt. If you come up with a way to do all these things please post them here....

[scoobert]

BALMAR 165 Amp/12 Volt 95 Series Large Frame Alternator at West Marine

sorry, $1300 for the one i wanted.
it was offered to me to get the brushes that do not spark, i think i will pass thou. my yacht is not gasoline, and the propane will be off my boat this summer. it can spark all it wants, like one of those old zap guns. nothing to light on here after the propane is gone.
the alt construction is being done by a company i have worked with for many years, who built 160 amp units for my honda accord 4pot. its a local company. and assured me they can make it externally regulated, and move the rectifiers outside.

believe me, this is not something i am building myself.

oh, and i am not planning to enter business, or sell these, just make one for myself, and keep the small unit for backup.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

to continue using serpentine kits and E-Maax is really the only game in town for engines other than Yanmar. .

A little history on the Serpentine Kits.
So there I was at the Oakland Strictly Sail Boat Show with the ElectroMaax serpentine pulley on display in the booth. A guy from Altmount walked up and handed me a copy of their US Patent and politely asked me to remove the serpentine pulley kit from my booth since ElectroMaax had copied the Almout crank pulley design and it was a violation their design patent to sell them in the United States. I have a few patents myself and after a quick review it was pretty clear that ElectroMaax's crank pulley was an exact copy of the Altmount design patent for the crank pulley down to the exact detail.

Seeing where this disaster was going, I pulled the pulley kits out of the booth and sent a copy of the design patent to ElectroMaax asking what was going on. John told me that yes they had copied Altmount but that Almount had copied them also..."everyone did it, grow up", was his initial response. John at ElectroMaax told me that since ElectroMaax was a Canadian company the US Design Patent didn't stop him from making them in Canada and selling them in Canada, "let them try to sue us", were his exact comforting words.

Now John was completely right that ElectroMaax could copy a patented item in the USA in Canada, BUT when I reminded him that I WAS a US Company and that he then could not legally sell them in the USA he just told me to relax and not worry about it. Altmount only had a design patent so ElectroMaax would just tweak the design slightly and everything would be ok, I was told. This is the type of guy we are dealing with here folks. What is ethical and moral doesn’t matter to him and I saw it again when he later copied our design right down to the mis-spellings in our manual!

Now since Almount was purchased by Balmar...and now Balmar and ElectroMaax have a relationship where ElectroMaax supplies Balmar with pulley kits one can only assume that ElectroMaax can now legally sell the serpentine crank pulley in the US...where they technically could not before, but did anyway.

Look making a good quality alternator is NOT rocket science and once you have a proven design you should be able to pop them out with quality and consistency if you pay attention, care about quality, and have properly trained guys working for you. When our relationship with ElectroMaax ended, we had 10 of their alternators on our shelf, so rather than toss away those dollars, we sent them to Mark Grasser to bench test and recondition if needed so we could sell them at our cost to minimize our loss. What Mark fond was our “Ah-Ha…Bingo” moment that explained so much about why some clients were having good happy results and others frankly were having an experience from Hell. Like you would expect, alternators are made in batches and since these 10 were ordered at different times we had several batches in hand and we found horrible consistency in assembly and parts. 5 of the 10 had the correct 14.1v regulator while 5 had the wrong regulator (3 different regs were used in the 10 alts). Mark found different wiring layouts that would make it impossible for the external reg to function, which explained why clients were having problems getting the unit to work with the Balmar 615 Reg. I later realized that ElectroMaax knew this all along, but would not step up and make things right out of not wanting to admit the problem was their fault after going for weeks and months with some clients blaming the issue on the client’s installation.

This failure to ship out quality and then blame the client is something I have seen with other ElectroMaax products. For example, I have a pile here of 7 failed AirMaax wind generators that I sold and then later took back and gave the client a FULL Refund on when ElectroMaax would not stand behind their warranty. I sold them, so I was responsible when ElectroMaax was nowhere to be found. I have all the client emails with more details of ugliness that you just don’t want to hear nor frankly would you believe!

“Rich…how can we believe you because you clearly have an axe to grind against ElectroMaax and John Stevens”

Fair point…the problem is that if I don’t share this experience then WHO WILL? Most people and especially businesses don’t want to risk looking bad by sharing their horror stories, but then that lets the scammers and unethical players keep on scamming…I call BS on that because if the others that were scammed by ElectroMaax before me would have told some of their stories, then myself and others could have been spared the nightmare. So, I will risk the arrows by telling my story and experiences with John Stevens and ElectroMaax. I’m not the lone exception to a long list of happy business relationship and clients. Far from it, there is a vast debris field following ElectroMaax…I could share that long list, but not all of those companies and clients want to have their disasters made public and then face the slings and arrows that follow anytime you take a stand. Right now, I am working with two unfortunate cruisers who bought the Aquamaax water maker but when it failed to work and ElectroMaax couldn’t or wouldn’t help them they came to me for help once they figured out that ElectroMaax has zero experience with water makers….that is if you don’t count stealing our design as experience. I know because I personally flew out to their Niagara Facility and trained them!

I’m sure they have made improvements…heck if not they would have gone out of business by now. I'm sharing these stories because it’s important for cruisers and boaters to know who they are doing business with and who their cruising kitty money is supporting.

[DeepFrz]

Some 40 years ago I was in the plant of a large computer manufacturing company in Minneapolis. I noticed some engineers dismantling and measuring a device that the company had been buying from another large US manufacturing company. It was called "reverse engineering" and has probably been going on forever. Perhaps the second oldest profession.

[Stu Jackson]

I just finished jury duty on a trade secrets case that involved patents, and reverse engineering as well. A very, very "hard to define and harder to prove" issue. doesn't mean it isn't done. Also a very interesting case.

[cheoah]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I just finished jury duty on a trade secrets case that involved patents, and reverse engineering as well. A very, very "hard to define and harder to prove" issue. doesn't mean it isn't done. Also a very interesting case.

Friend of mine retained Womble and Carlyle on one of these deals. It was just little ole him against SE Johnson, which happened to be the parent company of this company that has nothing to do with household cleaners.

There were similarities in the design but his was original, just an intuitive approach in this application, but he had to quit manufacturing like that and change his design. Having lots of resources is a benefit here, it wasn't worth the risk for him to litigate. His market share is still eating into theirs, luckily they cant sue for better design, production and marketing.

Interesting these two have just taken the "if you can't beat 'em, join "em approach. Sounds like the ElectroJac has a ways to go. Oops that's what I use to draw semen from bulls.....