Mahe 36: Electrical - 110 and 220 Volt Systems

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Jef & Marin, Netherlands

Ideally, you would find a friend in France or elsewhere in Europe who orders or purchases them there locally and sends them to you.

ebay is your french friend:
Disjoncteur unipolaire+neutre à vis 16A Hager MFN716 | eBay

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Yes, at 110v you would need wires and breakers rated at twice the amperage rated at 220v.
But your wires are not able to carry more than 16A and may burn down the boat if you use bigger breakers. Always use breakers suited for the wire size!

If you need more than the 16A you need to re-wire. If you can live with the 16A you can keep it.
16A @ 110v is over 1500w which in my view is good enough except for electrical heating.

We have 1000w inverter on our boat which is enough for microwave, bread maker or power tools. And even 1000w is really hard work for the batteries.

What brand/model microwave works on a 1000w inverter? I've been looking for one.

[Rufduck]

Same here, re the 1000 watt microwave. Just read an article vis a vis inverters that cautioned that start up wattage may be 2-3 times that of "cook".

Also, regarding the MFN breakers. I read a post here that is a French part designation and that there is an English one for the same breaker. Darn if I can find it now...anyone know what it might be?

Cheers,

Martyn

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by DotDun

What brand/model microwave works on a 1000w inverter? I've been looking for one.

I thought I had replied earlier but obviously not.
The microwave was a cheap Noname thing from a local Lidl or Aldi shop, rated 700w if I remember correctly. We used it just a few times, too little to justify the wasted space so we too it off at the end of the season.

I think the inverter is more important. We have one made by Sterling, 1000w pure sine. It can handle much more for short periods, somewhere around 1.5-2x as much for a few seconds and even more for very short peak loads.
startup loads have never been an issue with this inverter.

[Rufduck]

Thank you Rabbi but are we confusing output voltages? Is your 1000 watt inverter an SIB121000 and is that not a 230vac European grid inverter?
Groan, a 1000 watts is a 1000 watts regardless of voltage. It will take twice the amps at 110V (about 9) to run that 1000 watt microwave but you don't need to double the size.
Do not know why I'm having so much trouble wrapping my head around this BUT it is getting there.
OK, then I need to determine if my battery bank can support the demands of a given size inverter...cool.
I come from a racing background where we changed to AA batteries because the D batteries weigh more and we only ever have half a roll of toilet paper and that without the core.
I truly appreciate everyone's patience. This is such a different world I'm entering.
Cheers, rufduck

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Rufduck

Thank you Rabbi but are we confusing output voltages? Is your 1000 watt inverter an SIB121000 and is that not a 230vac European grid inverter?

Almost... Its the previous model without the LED digits

But yes, I have a 230v model but surely there must be inverters with similar characteristics for 110v. As you say, all you need is double the Amps.

Originally Posted by Rufduck

OK, then I need to determine if my battery bank can support the demands of a given size inverter...cool.

Even if it can (theoretically) you will find that an aged battery bank typically doesn't cope as well for more than a few minutes. But then we are talking about short loads, like 2 minutes microwave.
If we need big power for longer periods we have to run the engines, but how often does that happen?
We run a bread maker off solar & inverter no problem during summer days, almost every day to get fresh bread. The batteries are full again shortly after the loaf is done.

The only exception is the hairdryer. We have one rated 1000w but showers need to be aligned with motoring schedule (hot water & enough power for hairdryer). Only for cold easter holidays in the Med, of course.

[Rufduck]

OK. I've settled on a Xantrex 1800 Watt hardwired inverter and have been changing the Euro outlets to North American ones.
I no longer worry about the bizarre things I am finding on the boat. I have the sound system working and crank up some hard rock music and enjoy the challenge.
Have re-read most of the Mahe posts and extend my thanks to those who have spread breadcrumbs for me to follow...
Cotemar's post #11? is wonderful as it enables me to read the captions under the breakers but has me scratching my head once more.

The 2 "outlet" circuits (port cabin and salon & stbd cabin and galley) seem to be wired in a creative way. In the 2 salon outlets just forward of the fridge, 1 is live and the other is dead. Same thing for the 2 outlets in the hanging locker on the stbd side...1 live and 1 dead. The galley outlet...dead and the stbd cabin outlet...dead.
Have exposed the wiring and found that half the salon wiring definitely energizes the stbd outlets, so the labeling is obviously incorrect on the distribution panel...So, I changed the music to ABBA and decided to simply install a remote distribution box. Bringing in 1 existing hot circuit and leading all the radiating outlet circuits out from that point.

Does anyone know a current US source for the appropriate Hagar breakers? Shore power cable is now 30 amp (replacing the 4 sq mm shore cord). Any reason the primary breakers can not be increased to 30 amps or is the original box simply rated for 20 amps max? Cotemar indicated the outlet circuits can be safely increased to 10 amps which I would like to do.

Sorry this was long winded.

Cheers, Martyn

[rabbi]

our Mahe came with 220 factory option. we have one socket (no doubles) at the nav station, one at the kitchen block next to the door and one on the front panel of each need in the aft cabins. that's all.
reach had its own wiring from the distribution panel.

yours sounds different so maybe it has been modified by the previous owner and we can't help you.

for Hager breakers check the French out German eBay site, the are the cheapest sources i think.

[Rufduck]

Electrician due Friday. What you say may be correct but if so, they went about it in an interesting way.

When you use the inverter, does the AC flow through breakers on the AC panel? Or is the AC panel just for shore power?

Martyn

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Rufduck

Electrician due Friday. What you say may be correct but if so, they went about it in an interesting way.

When you use the inverter, does the AC flow through breakers on the AC panel? Or is the AC panel just for shore power?

Martyn

well you never know! we also found a couple of unused 220 v wires, obviously factory installed as they have the typical labels. But back in 2006 when our boat was built there was no further 220 option available so I have no idea what these wires are good for.

I added the inverter myself and the easiest way to do it was to feed into the existing panel. I moved all breakers to the right side of the panel and added a rotary switch on the left side to select between shore and inverter.
of course one has to remember to always switch off the charger and water heater when on inverter. No problem in our case since we never use shore power

[captainjay]

In the charter boats we split the buss bar. Upgrade the main breaker to 30 amps to match the incoming cord. Then feed the hot water heater, charger and inverter transfer switch from that. Cut off the buss bars at the newly added 15 amp breaker for the inverter transfer. Bring the power back from the transfer switch to feed the breakers for the oultets. You can put that wire in the top of the first outlet breaker and make a jumper or reuse the cut off bus bar to feed the next one.

Here is the suitable transfer switch for your inverer.
Inline Transfer Relay

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by captainjay

In the charter boats we split the buss bar. Upgrade the main breaker to 30 amps to match the incoming cord. Then feed the hot water heater, charger and inverter transfer switch from that. Cut off the buss bars at the newly added 15 amp breaker for the inverter transfer. Bring the power back from the transfer switch to feed the breakers for the oultets. You can put that wire in the top of the first outlet breaker and make a jumper or reuse the cut off bus bar to feed the next one.

Here is the suitable transfer switch for your inverer.
Inline Transfer Relay

this requires a GFCI socket on the inverter. otherwise the sockets don't protect against fault current when running on inverter power. I don't know if the directly wired inverter that ruffduck talks about has this, the website lists the GFCI only for those models with sockets, not the hard wired ones.


on a side note: this bypasses the primary RCD switch/ breaker. when running on inverter the light that indicates 220v presence stays off and the main switch has no function. a user may assume that if the main switch is off and/ or the indicator light is off that it is safe to open sockets, touch wires, etc.
for that reason this modification would be illegal on a german vessel. but certainly not uncommon :

[Rufduck]

Lots of fun stuff going on.
The mystery of half the sockets live and their corresponding mates dead is solved... Seems half the sockets run off the inverter and the others plus hot water and charger run off shore power. Have not found any breakers for those using the inverter, nor could my friendly electrician. I suggested I just short an outlet with the inverter on to see what happens but the electrician thought that a bad idea. I surmise there is some type of breaker in the inverter <shrug> but who knows.
My Xantrex 1800 hardwire inverter has automatic switching which I thought a great idea but now it dawns on me that I will have to manually shut off the hot water and charger when not on shore power. If this is the case, I am running two AC circuits to the nav station with remote switches for each. Am tempted to build another chase and relocate the whole AC breaker panel there.
Have converted the Euro LPG system to ABYC compliant one using NAmerican 1 gallon std bottles which just fit in the LPG fuel locker. Am retaining the front entry rather than top entry with the logic that there is less chance of retaining leaking gas.
The skipper says she is nearly ready to go exercise the boat and I've two sails I haven't had a chance to play with yet.
Chees,
Martyn

[oranaman]

An automatic solution to the water heater and charger problem connected whilst on inverter power is as follows. By using a relay switched by the presence of shore power ONLY, then automatic disconnection of water heater/charge is achieved when on inverter power

Buy a 110V (220v) coil relay with at least 2 x 10amp switch contacts. The relay has normally open(no) contacts, connect the coil of the relay to the incoming 110v (220v)supply/110v (220v) transfer switch. So when the 110v (220v) is present the relay is energised, check which relay contacts are now connected using ohnmeter. Remove the 110v (220v), check these contacts are now NOT connected. Note the two sets of 2 contacts, 4 connections in total.

Isolate/turn off the shore supply and inverter!

Go into the MCB box remove the Live/phase wires (probably brown in europe) from the 2 x MCB's supplying the water heater and charger (the cables that connect power to them) Reconnect these cables to the 2x set of contact. Connect the other two sets of contacts back to the MCB for the corresponding appliance e.g. water heater & charger. Check water heater wiring to water heater, charger wiring to charger.

Reconnect the shore supply. Now only when the relay is energised will the charger & water heater be connected e.g. - when the shore power is connected.

Parts: plastic box for relay (if it doesn't fit the MCB box)
Relay: Coil = 110v or 220v. Contacts 2 x Normally open (no) or change over (co). Contact rating min 10Amps to match
the MCB rating of the charger/water heater
1.5mm2 cable brown (to match mcb phase wiring) long enough to reach the relay


USUAL DISCLAIMERS PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DOING AS 110V/220V CAN KILL!!!

[Stu Jackson]

oranaman is right, but all you're facing is a management issue, not an electrical one. Just turn the heater and charger OFF all the time unless you are using them.

I have the same issue, but backwards. My Freedom 15 has a built-in ATS and everything on my AC panel comes from the shorepower or the inverter. My heater is always OFF unless for the 15-20 minutes I'm making hot water once or twice a day.

This is not rocket science!

Good luck.