Is the radar an obsolete equipment?

[Adornan]

Buying today, for a distance cruising boat, I would get an AIS and a Radar. The new Radars use a lot less power and can safely be mounted where you probably wouldn't put one of the old ones.

For me Radar comes into its own:
1) in fog
2) where you may encounter smaller vessels at sea without AIS
3) on passage where it helps identify Squally weather, especially at night
4) navigating a busy anchorage at night

If I was just mainly day sailing from my home port (in New Zealand) you don't need either, but would probably go for the AIS in priority to Radar based on experience on a friends boat. The main hazard round here, other than the weather, would be getting mown down by a large ship at night.

[rsn48]

I keep reading radar is great for fog, but in our new reality of warming, the shifting temperatures bring forest fires. This past summer, cruising off of Denman Island and the east coast of Vancouver Island, the forest fire smoke was so thick it was like I was in dense fog. So my new reality is that radar is also good seeing through forest fire smoke.

[Olly75]

I originally thought I'd never use my radar, then three nights ago I spent the night dealing with an enormous lightning storm.

Delighted i had the radar to get me through the developing cells. One strike was so close that it briefly knocked out the rlectronics. No fun at all and I dread to think what would've happened if id been without it.

[Icarus]

GPS does not know every rock, besides nor can it see an unlit vessel.
Besides that it's not always accurate.
If u have radar just use it.
I have the chart overlay and GPS on my radar.. Twice now entering an anchorage the GPS would have guided me straight on the hillside next to the entrance channel... The radar, as mentioned elsewhere, displays the real surroundings.
It's not absolutely necessary but nice to have in certain situations.

[DeValency]

Also... floating objects such as fallen containers etc are not using AIS and I’m not sure the charts are really updated with these...
A lot of the accidents at sea are a result of hitting a solid floating object at night.
Bottom line: use a radar!!!

[fishingmaniac]

Going to sea without radar is like playing Russian roulette. Don’t do it. Especially when pea soup moves in. In a busy harbor it’ll be damn near impossible not to hit something with only a chart plotter. And your nerves will never be the same. It’s creepy and not smart to say the least.
100 ton Master Captain

[boatman61]

Have to smile at the tales of the all seeing eye..
The number of times I have called commercial vessels to ask if they've seen me and the reply comes back.. "Where are you?" 'Fine off your port bow about 2nm' I respond.. then I have to respond I dont have AIS.
I dont show on their radar because the sea is 2m or over and theres to much clutter.
On a day with ripples and 10kts.. No problem

[tanglewood]

Just looking back at the original question....


It's interesting in all this discussion that I don't think ANYONE has said that radar is obsolete, meaning is was once useful and no longer is because it has been supplanted by some other things.


The only debate seems to be whether it has ever become sufficiently compelling to want or need it in the first place. This implies that it's time has yet to arrive, and that it certainly hasn't come and gone.

[exMaggieDrum]

I get the CF weekly download of high post issues. This one has 11 pages now and I am not going to read the whole thing. I am sure several others will have covered my two cents but I'll be a pain and put them in anyway.


I have radar, and I have upgraded both my boats to newer models when I bought them. I have used it many, many times. Certainly in the fog and I night. We had a lot of cruising miles offshore but one of the most important times we used it was to get in to a narrow inlet at night without a working chartplotter. The entrance to the inlet was well known as a collector of boats on rocks on both sides. We did not plan on getting there in the dark but stuff happens sometimes. We were either going to do donuts out in deep water for the rest of the night or use radar to get in. It worked and we were so happy.


We don't use it all the time, especially in our local waters which we know pretty well. We get a lot of fog and it is always on then. We also have AIS on the new boat but have seen that about half the boats out there don't have it. And we have lots of long tugs/tows which do have AIS in the tug, and the message tells you how long the tow is, but a lot of boats have either run in to the tows or run over the tow cable between them. Radar is better than using lights.


And speaking of lights, there is nothing more confusing than trying to enter a well lit city port where you can't see any of the beacons or other boats around you. We had a big problem with a small cruise ship in Mexico on a crossing route as the ship lights were impossible to see with all the other lights on the ship. Radar gave us his position exactly and his speed and heading and our radar also gave us the point where we would slam together without a change in course.



But another good use for radar is to match up the GPS/Chartplotter with the position of the land. You may not have that problem in Canada where charts are most likely to be excellent but other places are not well charted and you can easily run aground without radar. And rocks are conveniently underwater at all tides. The rocks you see (in daylight) are literally on the tip of the ice berg so to speak.


Can you get by without it - certainly. Does it add a large measure of safety in the right conditions (and sometimes in great conditions) - yes. It is expensive though so each makes their choices as to budget and other things which may be more important. Or purists who don't like any electronics showing on their boats. I respect those boaters as much as anyone. Boats mean different things to different sailors.


Fair winds

[lshulan]

Navigation rules clearly indicate that “Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look‑out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and ...”. All available means includes radar if your vessel is so equipped and it’s in working condition. If you are not using your radar and there is a collision, you will definitely be at least partly at fault since you are not using ALL AVAILABLE MEANS. It should be known that this rule requires using all of the following assuming you have them: binoculars, radar, AIS, a watch stander (someone who is on ‘watch’ - can be the helmsman if no one else), VHF radio tuned to 16, etc. So you must have radar, AIS, radio turned on when underway. Therefore, leaving your radar off when underway is really a bad idea.

[wjhutchings]

Good day all

The difference between radar and AIS is radar is in modern parlance real time, AIS isn't anything like it. So the information you get from radar is actually what is happening as long as you can interpret it. AIS works on either TCP or UCP which means the frequency used is shared between users and the more users the less time your transmitter gets to use it. So if your AIS transmits a positions message and another vessel is also transmitting your message can get lost, so can the next one and the next one and visa versa, this means your AIS message or other vessels positions may not get up dated for a considerable period. Radar just relies on a reflection from the signal it has transmitted so there is an up date of position of targets every time the scanner makes a sweep which is normally once every 5 -10 seconds depending on radar.

The problem with radar is you have to be able to interpret the picture not difficult with ARPA or another form of automatic tracking but if you haven't got that then can be harder. if you have a radar on your yacht one of your best investments could be a Radar Operators Course, which teaches the basics of radar and radar plotting.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by lshulan

Navigation rules clearly indicate that “Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look‑out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and ...”. All available means includes radar if your vessel is so equipped and it’s in working condition. If you are not using your radar and there is a collision, you will definitely be at least partly at fault since you are not using ALL AVAILABLE MEANS. It should be known that this rule requires using all of the following assuming you have them: binoculars, radar, AIS, a watch stander (someone who is on ‘watch’ - can be the helmsman if no one else), VHF radio tuned to 16, etc. So you must have radar, AIS, radio turned on when underway. Therefore, leaving your radar off when underway is really a bad idea.

I've read this intrepretation of the rules and the legal requirement to use Radar if you have it many times online. In practice it is much more nuanced and there are many court cases that do not conclude that the failure to use Radar puts you at significant fault in all situations, such as the ones referenced here:

I also reject plaintiff's contention that the EXPRESS must be condemned for failing to have her radar switched on during the evening in question. To reiterate: the EXPRESS was sailing in the open ocean on a clear night. Plaintiff cites no case requiring use of radar in such circumstances. My own research discloses none. The Fourth Circuit reached a contrary conclusion in British Transport Commission v. United States, supra. The district judge in that case rejected a contention that failure to use radar on a clear night constituted fault because it would have revealed the other vessel's existence. The district judge wrote:


"But [the mate] was not looking for anything to starboard; he had no reason to go to the radar to search in any direction. His failure to see the Duke [the other vessel] was not negligence, for it was not the result of neglect of an obligation. No obscurity obligated him to use his radar, and there was nothing else to put him on notice of any need for it."
The Fourth Circuit quoted this language with approval. 230 F.2d at 142.

In Afran Transport Co. v. The Bergechief, 274 F.2d 469, 474 (2d Cir.1960), Judge Medina stated generally: "If a vessel carries properly functioning radar equipment and she is in or approaching an area of known poor visibility, there is an affirmative duty to use the radar." British Transport Commission v. United States is one of the cases cited for that proposition in Afran Transport. It seems fair to assume that the Second Circuit would not condemn a vessel for failing to use her radar in uncongested waters and clear visibility. Certainly the Second Circuit has never done so. Plaintiff relies upon Rule 7(b), which specifies that "[p]roper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational,"[6] but this rule, enacted as part of a revision of the rules preventing collisions in 1977, does not in my view change the result. Propriety does not require use of the radar in circumstances such as these. Indeed, it may be imprudent to run the radar at all times. I may judicially notice, Fed.Rule of Evid. 201(b), that the service lives of radar sets (like all appliances) are finite. Indiscriminate use may cause the radar to fail when it is most needed.

In short, I conclude that absent circumstances indicating that radar may give information useful for safe navigation and not otherwise available, there is no obligation to keep the radar fully activated. Keeping the radar on standby while underway is, of course, a prudent procedure.

[Jim Cate]

Paul, thanks for that. It puts to rest one of the pervasive amateur interpretations of COLREGS that is so often trumpeted on the internet.

Much appreciated by me, and by any other battery-limited cruiser.

Jim

[L42Hazel]

Hi there, I can't help myself on this one. "Aesthetically the boat will be better without a radar", Obsolete???????? I have been a professional mariner for 37 years and counting, I question if you have thought about the safety of your crew or the crews of any other vessels. GPS and AIS are great AIDS, but remember that " Great Aids. Just imagine your if fog, you know where you are
( within a couple of meters, ie GPS ), but you have no idea if anyone else is around. How many pleasure boaters have AIS? Not many. Radar is the only tool that can help you assuming most fiberglass boats have radar reflectors. Even in 2018, I have frequently seen commercial ships that are heading into Juan De Fuca Strait transiting along the tops of the Olympic mountains (according to Ship Finder, Marine Finder, AIS). I can't imagine what a court of law would do to you if you injured or killed someone running around with improper equipment. Please think about SAFETY and not AESTHETICS.

[mako]

Originally Posted by rsn48

I keep reading radar is great for fog, but in our new reality of warming, the shifting temperatures bring forest fires. This past summer, cruising off of Denman Island and the east coast of Vancouver Island, the forest fire smoke was so thick it was like I was in dense fog. So my new reality is that radar is also good seeing through forest fire smoke.

Did your radar also come with a respirator?