Is a forward looking sonar / fishfinder worth adding?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Benz

Hi Jim,

When you cast it ahead and it hits a rock a foot below the surface, you can tell because the line abruptly stops paying out. If there were any depth there, the line would keep going as the lead pulled it down. Maybe it takes practice to feel these things (another thing you can feel is the hardness of the bottom, since the vibration of the lead hitting hardpan travels up the line), but I can confidently say I have plenty of that. Another neat feature is you can cast it sideways to see how close to the channel edge you are (done that), and when anchoring in tight spaces you can sound off the stern and see where your keel wound up.
No doubt the old timers would have loved every modern trick, and I'm glad for all the choices I have (love my handheld GPS!), but for me the choice to hand-sound has been a good one, and I've never once wished I had an echo sounder.
Ben
zartmancruising.com

To each their own. I feel it is bordering on negligence not to have a depthsounder on any vessel large. Enough one could not easily step out and shove off.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Benz

Hi Jim,

When you cast it ahead and it hits a rock a foot below the surface, you can tell because the line abruptly stops paying out. If there were any depth there, the line would keep going as the lead pulled it down. Maybe it takes practice to feel these things (another thing you can feel is the hardness of the bottom, since the vibration of the lead hitting hardpan travels up the line), but I can confidently say I have plenty of that. Another neat feature is you can cast it sideways to see how close to the channel edge you are (done that), and when anchoring in tight spaces you can sound off the stern and see where your keel wound up.
No doubt the old timers would have loved every modern trick, and I'm glad for all the choices I have (love my handheld GPS!), but for me the choice to hand-sound has been a good one, and I've never once wished I had an echo sounder.
Ben
zartmancruising.com

I bow to your experienced practice and envy your skill, but still have some questions:

If you are under way, even at a low speed, can you cast the lead far enough ahead, feel its "vibes", check the depth and then react to a dangerous reading before arriving at the hazard? The Probe FLS, antique as it is, will see a big rock further ahead than most mortals can cast a lead, I think... Not so good at telling the difference between 8 feet (ok for us) and 7 feet (not enough), but pretty good at seeing shoals sticking up from somewhat deeper water. Have seen coral heads sticking up from deep lagoons at several hundred feet distance at times.

And if it is an isolated rock, and your lead happens to fall beside it rather than upon it, it will not warn you at all. The Probe, with a beam width of 12 degrees (actually a bit wider in practice) has a good chance of seeing it.

But mostly, having the readout in the cockpit, running continuously, seems more useful than having an experienced seaman on the bow constantly casting the lead. I appreciate the old skills (having used celestial for sole means of navigational positioning in the old days) but do think there are better means of depth determination.

Many of those older skills and techniques were good in their day, but (kinda like me) have become obsolete. They work just as well as in their heyday, but better methods have arrived and IMO, should be used when available.

YMMV... well, i guess we've seen that your "mileage" does indeed vary! I hope that your methods continue to keep you off the putty, and that you continue to enjoy their practice.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

To the OP,

If you will be going to places where you can't see into the water, such as grey days, flat days, mud or tannin in the water, places where you are off the beaten path, or where the charts are not good, you will explore at slow speeds, about 1 knot, to feel your way to safety. At those slow speeds, you can interpret the display, and stop!

However, if you only travel in well charted areas, and know the hazards on the bottoms, maybe you don't want one.

One time, we struck a reef pretty hard. But we were off the beaten track, the water was shiny like a mirror, a cyclone had blown away the aids to navigation, and we didn't have the Probe on.

We have found it very useful, but the people who say it will not be very helpful if you're going fast are right, you will not have time to react unless you're going slow.

Ann

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I bow to your experienced practice and envy your skill, but still have some questions:

If you are under way, even at a low speed, can you cast the lead far enough ahead, feel its "vibes", check the depth and then react to a dangerous reading before arriving at the hazard? The Probe FLS, antique as it is, will see a big rock further ahead than most mortals can cast a lead, I think... Not so good at telling the difference between 8 feet (ok for us) and 7 feet (not enough), but pretty good at seeing shoals sticking up from somewhat deeper water. Have seen coral heads sticking up from deep lagoons at several hundred feet distance at times.

And if it is an isolated rock, and your lead happens to fall beside it rather than upon it, it will not warn you at all. The Probe, with a beam width of 12 degrees (actually a bit wider in practice) has a good chance of seeing it.

But mostly, having the readout in the cockpit, running continuously, seems more useful than having an experienced seaman on the bow constantly casting the lead. I appreciate the old skills (having used celestial for sole means of navigational positioning in the old days) but do think there are better means of depth determination.

Many of those older skills and techniques were good in their day, but (kinda like me) have become obsolete. They work just as well as in their heyday, but better methods have arrived and IMO, should be used when available.

YMMV... well, i guess we've seen that your "mileage" does indeed vary! I hope that your methods continue to keep you off the putty, and that you continue to enjoy their practice.

Jim

Jim
I think the hand-line approach is analogous to carefully hand plotting a DR position every 15 mins when things are scary versus having the chart plotter plot a fix every one second. Nostalgia isn't always better or more reliable.

[Benz]

Hi again Jim,

When casting ahead and the sounder hits a rock, you do not feel the vibration in the line, as it is still slack. Feeling for bottom softness is a matter of moving dead slow, letting the line run mostly straight down through your fingers and feeling when it hits.
But knowing the sounder's limitations is important for it's proper use. Because I don't have a baseball arm that can toss very far ahead, when in murky and unsure waters we feel our way in very slowly. That slow speed coupled with a habitual forward throw kept us off at least one rock in Panama and one sandbar in Florida. I have a helmsman (woman?) who works very well with me, and when she sees the leadsman frantically signal "turn to port now!" she does it.
There's one way in which having all the gizmos would maybe be nice, but electronics are not in our budget, so we learn to be safe with the resources available. No doubt all those things have their use, and are a comfort to have, but I only point out that there are other ways to navigate safely, and that those ways work. But I completely disagree that a readout in the cockpit is better than a man on the bows. Someone needs to be up there spotting visually anyway--surely you don't trust your entire boat and possibly lives to a screen?
Someone suggested that not having an electric sounder is negligent, but it seems to me that putting all your faith in electronics to keep you safe is more negligent by far!
But one final thing. I have sailed on many boats that had sounders and forward-looking sonars, and electric charts and radar and every gizmo that clever marketers could convince the owner to buy. I have also cruised on two boats of my own without all those things. So I have experience on both sides of this matter, which is something that I'll bet those who are crying "Negligent!" have not.
Ben
zartmancruising.com

[Mariano]

Originally Posted by Benz

Hi again Jim,

When casting ahead and the sounder hits a rock, you do not feel the vibration in the line, as it is still slack. Feeling for bottom softness is a matter of moving dead slow, letting the line run mostly straight down through your fingers and feeling when it hits.
But knowing the sounder's limitations is important for it's proper use. Because I don't have a baseball arm that can toss very far ahead, when in murky and unsure waters we feel our way in very slowly. That slow speed coupled with a habitual forward throw kept us off at least one rock in Panama and one sandbar in Florida. I have a helmsman (woman?) who works very well with me, and when she sees the leadsman frantically signal "turn to port now!" she does it.
There's one way in which having all the gizmos would maybe be nice, but electronics are not in our budget, so we learn to be safe with the resources available. No doubt all those things have their use, and are a comfort to have, but I only point out that there are other ways to navigate safely, and that those ways work. But I completely disagree that a readout in the cockpit is better than a man on the bows. Someone needs to be up there spotting visually anyway--surely you don't trust your entire boat and possibly lives to a screen?
Someone suggested that not having an electric sounder is negligent, but it seems to me that putting all your faith in electronics to keep you safe is more negligent by far!
But one final thing. I have sailed on many boats that had sounders and forward-looking sonars, and electric charts and radar and every gizmo that clever marketers could convince the owner to buy. I have also cruised on two boats of my own without all those things. So I have experience on both sides of this matter, which is something that I'll bet those who are crying "Negligent!" have not.
Ben
zartmancruising.com

Do you have VHF, , or electric nav lights? They are electric gizmos and no clever marketer convinced me of having them, it´s just pure logic to have them as well as every other electric and electronic navigation AID (radar, GPS, chartplotter, AIS, FLS, etc.) your budget allows. I don´t go night sailing if I can avoid it, but my boat has electric nav lights, I always (mostly) sail in well known waters, but have a chartplotter, have my eyes to see what´s near but have a radar to HELP me see farther, hope other boaters can see me but keep my AIS turned on. All these things are not essential to sailing, but make it easier, safer, enjoyable and FUN.

My car has ABS, airbags, stability and traction control, and a lot of other AIDS
; sure, I con drive without them but I prefer not taking the risk

[epiic]

I have the B&G ForwardScan sonar installed and its only useful when looking for an anchorage in shallow waters.

If it displays 5ft ahead of me, I know I need to stop and rotate my boat to find a deeper spot to pass.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have been contemplating exactly this, I had a dragonfly on my fishing boat when they first came out and It was great for finding dive sites.
There is a stripped down Dragonfly on Amazon for $130, but how did you mount and power it?

There is a portable lithium battery pack that works for a long time.. found it in "if you looked at that look at this" on amazon. Didn't mount the display.. just kinda hold on to it.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Mariano

Do you have VHF, , or electric nav lights? They are electric gizmos and no clever marketer convinced me of having them, it´s just pure logic to have them as well as every other electric and electronic navigation AID (radar, GPS, chartplotter, AIS, FLS, etc.) your budget allows. I don´t go night sailing if I can avoid it, but my boat has electric nav lights, I always (mostly) sail in well known waters, but have a chartplotter, have my eyes to see what´s near but have a radar to HELP me see farther, hope other boaters can see me but keep my AIS turned on. All these things are not essential to sailing, but make it easier, safer, enjoyable and FUN.

My car has ABS, airbags, stability and traction control, and a lot of other AIDS
; sure, I con drive without them but I prefer not taking the risk

I have not said that these things are bad in themselves: I'm glad there are choices out there suited to everyone's level of comfort, experience, and competence. I don't look down on those who choose gizmos--but I do point out that there are other options that are cheaper and more reliable. I'm not fond of huge car batteries in boats, so all my electrics run on AA batteries. It's a choice I made based on many factors, and I'm perfectly comfortable with it. Whether I think it's bad seamanship to hang all your navigation on the fragile peg of electric circuits is beside the issue: it is not for me to judge how others conduct their seafaring, but I believe a public forum is the appropriate place to discuss what works for such and such a person in such and such a situation. The OP did ask, after all, whether he needed a forward looking sonar; my input was: there are other options, and I can testify to their usefulness.
None of my seafaring choices are made from nostalgia, but I do like simplicity. If it seems like I'm clinging to tradition for it's own sake, so be it. I am not doing so, but I do find that paying attention to tradition keeps us from making the mistakes of the past. (That quote's not original to me).
Ben
zartmancruising.com

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have been contemplating exactly this, I had a dragonfly on my fishing boat when they first came out and It was great for finding dive sites.
There is a stripped down Dragonfly on Amazon for $130, but how did you mount and power it?

We have a handheld depth sounder that we use to explore an anchorage from the dinghy. It doesn't get used often. Typical use is when we've already anchored in a somewhat dubious spot to sound around the boat to see if our likely swing might cause a problem.

We had an old Echopilot FLS on the boat when we bought it at the helm. It was always turned on when we entered anchorages. Always glanced at it but didn't think much about it. It eventually died (after 12 or 13 years) and we felt naked going into anchorages. We travel in a lot poorly charted areas and with significant coral. After awhile we decided we really liked having the FLS and bought a new Echopilot ( they gave us a good deal as a present customer).

[clownfishsydney]

We have an Interphase FLS. We generally only use it when going in and out of rivers/channels and at an anchorage. As others have stated, excellent when moving slow to check that there are now shallows ahead.

[Sputnik]

I installed B&G Zues 9" plotter with Forward Scan last year....I like to creak crawl in our bilge keel Hunter 356 which draws 1.6m, most places we go on the E Coast of Uk are muddy and shallow, so finding the channel is really useful. Before I purchased I explained my mission for the kit.
Sadly after replacing all of the equipment piece by piece we find the FS to be completely unreliable in shallow water once the Transducer is in any less than 2m, although the RM depth sounder will work all the way to touching the bottom the B&G is unreliable and looses the bottom, both FS and actual depth.
I have been all the way through the boat to try to find any fault in installation/interference and am at loss to find any external fault or installation issues. I believe it is probably an issue with geometry: once the depth gets below a certain level the sound impulses don't return, but glance off of the bottom, however, that does not explain why the actual depth indication fails.

Video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0xD8yY3I8

If you sail a boat that draws 2m or more it may work for you, but so far I remain very unhappy.



The actual Zues 9" CP/Radio/Radio remote is lovely, and am pleased with that.
Neil

[ramblinrod]

Someone suggested that not having an electric sounder is negligent, but it seems to me that putting all your faith in electronics to keep you safe is more negligent by far!

Please show me any modern commercial ocean liner, with billions invested in the fleet, and where the cost of a single grounding could be $1M / day, who requires the captain to stand on the deck and drop a lead line instead of checking the sonar?

So I have experience on both sides of this matter, which is something that I'll bet those who are crying "Negligent!" have not.

My first cruising boat was equipped with the following navigation equipment:

1. Paper charts.
2. Parallel rules.
3. Dividers.
4. A compass.
5. A watch.
6. A float on a 50 ft line.
7. A chart to correlate time for 50 ft of travel to vessel speed.
8. A weight on the opposite end of the 50 ft line.
9. A pad of paper and a pencil.

[FionaJC]

Thank you all for all the opinions and advice. To those who have done the calculations of distance speed and time. I use a chart / local knowledge but in areas I dont know I go very slowly on the motor, not sail and look at the trend of the depth gauge very carefully. My view is that if this works its an aid to pilotage and not to be relied on as the only depth gauge. I draw 1.2m and my alarm is set to 2, is this over or under cautions? - maybe a new thread.

Sometimes when going to France I feel like I'm blidfolded even though the Garmin Chartplotter shows me where I am, the expected depth and the depth gauge shows me actual beneath me. I feel that this is just an extra help. I have bought one of eBay which has a power fault. I will try and repair it and have a play. Its a simple fault and I am a (rare female) electronic engineer so I will see what I can do and report back.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Please show me any modern commercial ocean liner, with billions invested in the fleet, and where the cost of a single grounding could be $1M / day, who requires the captain to stand on the deck and drop a lead line instead of checking the sonar?



My first cruising boat was equipped with the following navigation equipment:

1. Paper charts.
2. Parallel rules.
3. Dividers.
4. A compass.
5. A watch.
6. A float on a 50 ft line.
7. A chart to correlate time for 50 ft of travel to vessel speed.
8. A weight on the opposite end of the 50 ft line.
9. A pad of paper and a pencil.

And in spite of all that, the captain of the Costa Concordia managed to cause a disaster. I'f he'd only had someone in the bows with a lead, it probably wouldn't have happened.

Do you consider yourself to have been negligent in putting to sea (or wherever you might have sailed) with those basic navigation tools? Do you look back and think, "That was the dumbest thing I ever did?" I have never put to sea with so little, but would not consider negligent someone who was perfectly competent and comfortable sailing with those alone. The best of tools won't make an incompetent sailor better (look at the Costa Concordia again), and the most basic tools, in the hands of a competent seaman, will be all he needs.
Ben
zartmancruising.com