Headset for radio comms between helm and anchor?

[redhead]

Originally Posted by frozenhawaiian

on small, even medium cruising boats I've always found headsets kind of stupid. I've worked on sailing yachts up to 120ft we've never used headsets for anchoring, on the bigger boats whoever is at the windlass will grab a handheld VHF and whoever is at the helm will use the fixed VHF at the helm, but even then we're talking about 100ft + boats and we don't feel like yelling. anchoring really isn't that complicated an operation. but to each their own I suppose, but I do get a laugh when I see the couples on their 40-50 ft cruising sloops with their headsets making some huge production out of anchoring.

Uhhhh, because it makes for more efficient communications for those without your level of expertise?

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by frozenhawaiian

on small, even medium cruising boats I've always found headsets kind of stupid. I've worked on sailing yachts up to 120ft we've never used headsets for anchoring, on the bigger boats whoever is at the windlass will grab a handheld VHF and whoever is at the helm will use the fixed VHF at the helm, but even then we're talking about 100ft + boats and we don't feel like yelling. anchoring really isn't that complicated an operation. but to each their own I suppose, but I do get a laugh when I see the couples on their 40-50 ft cruising sloops with their headsets making some huge production out of anchoring.

Uh, if you only knew the things we whisper about on those headsets. You're missing out.

[Mike OReilly]

I just scanned the most recent page. See this has turned into the typical bun fight that too many of these threads devolve into. I hesitate to say, but just in case this helps the OP…

My partner and I started our cruising life with headsets. They were decent wind-cancelling VOX mics attached to our FRS radios (Motorola T5500). Worked fine. But, we anchor a lot. After a season we naturally evolved into using simple hand signals. Far easier and more efficient.

I can certainly see on larger boats, or where line of sight is not clear from anchor to helm, but on most smallish boats my experience is that hand signals are far simpler, less problematic, and more efficient.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by redhead

Uhhhh, because it makes for more efficient communications for those without your level of expertise?

"Look out - there's something over there."
"Over where?"
"Over THERE!"
CRUNCH


Efficient communications are not a given, and not guaranteed by technology. You can have efficient or inefficient communications with both hand signals or radios. Whether radio communications are headsets or handhelds is really irrelevant.



My preference is for hand signals with the recognition that when anchoring the person on the bow is in charge (this greatly simplifies things) and when docking the person at the wheel is in charge (not the dimwit on the dock). As a backup or extraordinary circumstances we use radios, with a speaker-mic on the handheld of the deck crew.



My preference for a VHF over consumer-grade headsets is that on larger boats and busier venues everyone involved on deck and on the dock can be on the same channel, improving communication. Speaker-mics run about $50 and most boats already have a handheld and a fixed radio. VHF also avoids having one more thing (the headsets) to keep charged. As boats get really big and more hands are involved I would move to UHF for comms on the boat (yes, there are marine UHF frequencies) and stick with VHF for coordination ashore. Frankly that's pretty big.

[frozenhawaiian]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

"Look out - there's something over there."
"Over where?"
"Over THERE!"
CRUNCH


Efficient communications are not a given, and not guaranteed by technology. You can have efficient or inefficient communications with both hand signals or radios. Whether radio communications are headsets or handhelds is really irrelevant.



My preference is for hand signals with the recognition that when anchoring the person on the bow is in charge (this greatly simplifies things) and when docking the person at the wheel is in charge (not the dimwit on the dock). As a backup or extraordinary circumstances we use radios, with a speaker-mic on the handheld of the deck crew.



My preference for a VHF over consumer-grade headsets is that on larger boats and busier venues everyone involved on deck and on the dock can be on the same channel, improving communication. Speaker-mics run about $50 and most boats already have a handheld and a fixed radio. VHF also avoids having one more thing (the headsets) to keep charged. As boats get really big and more hands are involved I would move to UHF for comms on the boat (yes, there are marine UHF frequencies) and stick with VHF for coordination ashore. Frankly that's pretty big.

couldn't have said it batter. if you don't communicate clearly and efficiently with your crew then headsets aren't going to make it all better. and if you're not proficient in anchoring, practice.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

...Efficient communications are not a given, and not guaranteed by technology. You can have efficient or inefficient communications with both hand signals or radios. Whether radio communications are headsets or handhelds is really irrelevant.

My preference is for hand signals with the recognition that when anchoring the person on the bow is in charge (this greatly simplifies things) and when docking the person at the wheel is in charge (not the dimwit on the dock). As a backup or extraordinary circumstances we use radios, with a speaker-mic on the handheld of the deck crew.

Good point about efficiency. Technology, or lack thereof, won’t improve poor communication.

And also agree with the ‘who’s in charge’ point. Our technique is to examine the anchorage on the chart so we have a general plan, then scan the anchorage and scout it out if need be once we arrive. Once we decide where generally to anchor the whomever is on deck duty (we alternate) goes forward as we approach. Deck person is then in charge. Helm follows hand signals to get into final position, stop the boat, reverse if necessary, and then follow directions to set and dig it in. All done without a word.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by FabioC

This is a thread I started a few months back on this subject, it has a lot of useful information:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ie-214515.html

For all is worth, here are the results of my experience based on the recommendations from that thread.

First, in terms of the motivation/need for radios/headset, I think the truly useful use case is to assist in maneuvers in high wind where one person is forward or on the bow and the other person is in the cockpit (e.g., a spinnaker jibe) because it is very hard to hear each other in that situation and the person on the bow needs both hands for what she is doing (and cannot turn her head either to see hand signals for the cockpit). When things go wrong (e.g., the spinnaker wraps on the forestay), being able to communicate makes recovering from the problem much more easy. Overall, in high winds, it helps greatly with safety (e.g., "the lazy sheet is around your foot!" avoids major troubles). Even when things go smoothly, the whole maneuver is simpler if there is continuous communication.

For anchoring/docking radios/headsets are a nice to have, but certainly not necessary. For us, the motivation is to be able to communicate at very low volume ("almost silent docking", primarily in the name of seamanship), and still have some indication of distance or angle from the crew to the helm.

In terms of equipment, following the recommendations from the thread pointed out above, we got both the SENA headset and the Baofeng radios.

For the SENA, our experience is mixed. Two issues: first, the noise cancellation is ok but not great. It works well for anchoring, but in high wind on the bow, not so much. Overall, workable but borderline; second, and more important, the "user interface", if we can call it that way, is very primitive. It is very easy to think that the headsets are on and paired when they are not, unless you take them off your head and look at the led, but even then you do not really know that they are paired. The headsets stay on ok, but they do not feel very secure in a maneuver in high wind, so you typically have them on either under a cap or tied to your head or neck in some fashion, so taking them on and off is impractical, especially if you are busy on deck.

The Baofeng radios are wonderful little radios, but they take a lot of tinkering to configure them right. Once you do, they work great. You can use them with a shoulder speaker and they are loud and clear. The ideal use for the Baofengs, however, is to communicate with the crew when one person is in the dinghy, or on the dock, or otherwise away from the boat (yes, it is borderline legal to use if one party is on land, but it is tolerated for the occasional, quick communication or for safety). Their range is longer than the usual portable VHF and they are incredibly inexpensive for what they can do.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Our technique is to examine the anchorage on the chart so we have a general plan, then scan the anchorage and scout it out if need be once we arrive. Once we decide where generally to anchor the whomever is on deck duty (we alternate) goes forward as we approach.

Your simple technique is in stark contrast to a common failing among recreational sailors.



What I see over and over is crew eager to get to their duty station. Then they spend a long time away from one another with no communication.



With my crews we gather twice (sometimes three times, but that counts the meeting over breakfast for weather and changes to standing orders (hardly ever) and what to expect in the next couple of days). First we meet in the cockpit to review the plan (anchoring, docking, transferring fuel jugs, whatever). This is generally when we strike the watch (not the watchSTANDER, just the watch *grin*) and everyone is up. In movies, this when someone says "the Captain has the con" but I think that is pretentious. After that meeting crew (and possibly me depending on circumstances) get everything ready. For anchoring that is removing any lashings and having the snubber out and ready but secured from going overboard or being a tripping hazard. For docking that means having fenders out on deck and docklines rigged, coiled, and secured. Here is the important bit: THEN EVERYONE COMES BACK TO THE COCKPIT (or wheelhouse - depending on the boat). Everyone can hear everyone else and any changes by observation of reality ("no plan survives contact with the enemy") can be conveyed AND UNDERSTANDING OF CHANGES CONFIRMED. Sorry to shout. This stuff is important. When are things most likely to change? At the last minute. How long does it take to get from the wheel to anyplace on the boat? Thirty seconds? Crew should not deploy early. This time together is also when I reinforce, when docking, that the idjit on the dock is not in charge, that I am, and lines go over when and in the order that I say. Period. Dot. Regardless, we can stop talking about hand signals and headsets if we are within a few feet of one another. Then you (crew) amble casually to stations and the anchoring or docking evolution goes a lot more smoothly because everyone has the best and latest information when they head to stations. You look like Gods. The people in the yacht club bar rise in applause and buy you drinks. *sigh* Right. No one is watching when everything is perfect. Much. I have one good story...but I digress.



You get big enough (say a hundred feet) and this changes a bit but you have more highly trained people, training exercises, a chain of command that actually has links in it, *grin* and even checklists. Generally bigger crews also. Regardless, the concept of short face-to-face communication is the same.



So Mike what you offhandedly referred to is in point of fact a very important technique. Good on you mate.

[redhead]

I guess I just don't like the high handedness of it all. The implication is that if you use headsets you are less of a sailor than the rest. My husband is a pilot and I was an HF International Radio Operator giving clearances to planes for 20 years, so I guess I'm qualified as a efficient communicator.

But what of those who are not? What of those who are learning to sail, to dock, to anchor, to understand weather, tides and all the other cool stuff, but all at once? We weren't all born with salt in our veins and I remember so well all the challenges that were critical elements of getting the boat from point A to point B safely for the first several years. Isn't making communications (leaving out the quality of said communications) easier a plus for people still at the beginning of the learning curve? What about people who are just no darn good at communicating? Should they be barred from sailing? Or should they be given a tool that will make something they find difficult - easier? That's all, easier.

I don't usually jump into this stuff, but I keep tripping over this subject of "sneering at people who are less than I" attitude. And then a couple of days later there's a post about why no one is sailing any more. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but state it without name calling.

That said - my rant is over, now you can have me for lunch. Have at it.

[sailnautilus]

Sena headsets have an added use not addressed here.....
We have been sailing together for decades and did not feel we needed them for anchoring, but we have a hardtop over the cockpit and when I put my husband up the mast (72’) we could not communicate while I was manning the winches under the hardtop.....
This is communication which is difficult with hand signals.....turn the VHF on and test it.....turn the steaming light on......try the strobe light.......I have a cramp in my leg from the bosuns chair, get me down.....I need a different tool, send it up on spare halyard.....

So the headphones are invaluable for the masthead work. We started using them for anchoring since we had them and we discovered we can have more communications......
Stop, there is a sandy area you just passed...
Don’t anchor here, that guy has a gen set on deck.....
Too many Coral heads, try over there...
Gonna be rolly here, let’s go to the protected side of the harbor.....

Also use them when he is in engine room.....he can tell me to start engine, increase or decrease RPM or report on gauges.....

Finally, we started using them for docking......
We can give distances off and advise any change in plan....works great!!!

Highly recommend them even for experienced cruisers...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Your simple technique is in stark contrast to a common failing among recreational sailors. ...So Mike what you offhandedly referred to is in point of fact a very important technique. Good on you mate.

Thanks Auspicious. Kind of you to say. We do a lot of anchoring, and always as a couple, so we’ve had a lot of practice. Besides, I’m kinda lazy, so always look for the easiest way to do things. I just find our approach far easier than wrestling with headsets or whatnot.

Originally Posted by redhead

I guess I just don't like the high handedness of it all. The implication is that if you use headsets you are less of a sailor than the rest.

Red, if that’s how my comments have come across, then I deeply apologize. That is not my intention at all. As I said, we used headsets for the first season of cruising, and they worked fine. Some couples stick with them, and if they work for you, then great.

We just found that once we gained more experience we sort of evolved into the use of hand signals. It just seems a lot easier to us. This is why I offered my experience to the OP.

[redhead]

Mike - it was not aimed at you. You don't seem judgemental in your posts.

I remember so well wanting to be good at this thing we all are doing, and had I met some of the posters here I would have sighed and gone away, never to learn. Agree or disagree with any point of view, it's our right. Coming across as "Master and Commander" always strikes me as rude.

[FabioC]

Originally Posted by redhead

I guess I just don't like the high handedness of it all. The implication is that if you use headsets you are less of a sailor than the rest. My husband is a pilot and I was an HF International Radio Operator giving clearances to planes for 20 years, so I guess I'm qualified as a efficient communicator.

But what of those who are not? What of those who are learning to sail, to dock, to anchor, to understand weather, tides and all the other cool stuff, but all at once? We weren't all born with salt in our veins and I remember so well all the challenges that were critical elements of getting the boat from point A to point B safely for the first several years. Isn't making communications (leaving out the quality of said communications) easier a plus for people still at the beginning of the learning curve? What about people who are just no darn good at communicating? Should they be barred from sailing? Or should they be given a tool that will make something they find difficult - easier? That's all, easier.

I don't usually jump into this stuff, but I keep tripping over this subject of "sneering at people who are less than I" attitude. And then a couple of days later there's a post about why no one is sailing any more. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but state it without name calling.

That said - my rant is over, now you can have me for lunch. Have at it.

I could not agree more.

This thread has degenerated into an opportunity of boasting [undocumented] "seamanship" skills and trying to demonstrate that enhancing communications on a boat is not necessary and all can be solved by practice.

Apparently, watching any of us dock is like watching a ballet on mute, where everything happens in perfect synch and in total silence. Somehow that is not quite the reality that I see at my dock nor at the marinas that I visit when cruising. People screw up all the time, even very experienced cruisers. In fact, seamanship is not getting it right all the time, which is not bound to happen, but rather staying composed and calm and recover from the screw ups gracefully, silently, and without damages.

As I say in another post, headsets or radios are not strictly needed on a recreational boat when docking, but they are a nice to have to keep the volume down, be more reactive in case of problems, and in general showing seamanship. They do not make up for lack of practice, but they are of some help in executing an "elegant" docking or getting out from a situation without commotion (the crew whispering "abort" on the mic is certainly more dignified than yelling "reverse! reverse!" or "slow down!" or "you are short!" or letting you bang into the dock).

Where headsets and radios are a sure sign of seamanship is in maneuvers in high winds where one person is on the bow and one person is in the cockpit (for example, a spinnaker jibe). In fact, even pro sailors use headsets or radios in those situations. Simply put, it is often the case that the person in the cockpit does not have a clear view of what is happening on the bow or aloft, you cannot hear each other because of the wind, and hand signals are impractical because you may not have eye contact and/or free hands. In those situations, finding a way to communicate reliably is a display of seamanship and safety. The problem, if anything, is that there is no perfect solution available, but headsets or radios are the best help that you can find and are becoming more and more part of the gear used by experienced sailors.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by redhead

I guess I just don't like the high handedness of it all.

Maybe it was me. I try to answer the "why's" in addition to the "what's" and that leads to rambling and some degree of pedantry.



My big point is that you can't buy capability with a credit card. There is a lot to be said for training and practice and time-proven procedure. That isn't to say that technology doesn't provide very real improvements. AIS, DSC, Pactor, satellite, MARPA, and more come to mind. Heck, an iPhone with calendar entries that nag you to change the oil. Some things are technology for the own sake. Dometic makes a freezer with WiFi (server, not client *sigh*). Really?



I won't repeat my thoughts on communication above. I'll just irritate people. Maybe further. *grin*



My diatribes are meant to lift people up, not put them down. If I come across otherwise then I apologize.

[redhead]

And now I will close with the real reason I like headsets:

Back in the dark ages when I was a neophyte I was at the helm and the guy up on the bow said "Go slightly to port".

I thought I did.

Only until he yelled "The OTHER port you jackass"

Took me about 2 years to live that one down back in my home harbor.

Headsets are dear to me even now....