GMRS or VHF for communications with crew ashore?

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Cadence

You can go CB SSB and get significantly more range and get away from all the good buddies.

In a handheld thats a rare bird in my neck of the woods, can't remember the last time i seen one, besides we spend nearly as much time out in the bush as on the boat so having the same type of radio (UHF/CB) as the rest (good buddies) makes sense and is pretty standard.

Out in remote places on the boat tends to be far enough away that interference from other users hasn't been a problem, haven't had any problems with distance either although never really that far apart and usually only the two of us.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

In a handheld thats a rare bird in my neck of the woods, can't remember the last time i seen one, besides we spend nearly as much time out in the bush as on the boat so having the same type of radio (UHF/CB) as the rest (good buddies) makes sense and is pretty standard.

Out in remote places on the boat tends to be far enough away that interference from other users hasn't been a problem, haven't had any problems with distance either although never really that far apart and usually only the two of us.

I agree, don't know I've seen a hand held CB SSB.

[Jammer]

Thank you to everyone who posted advice and experiences.


<<< CB >>>
CB can be made to work very well with large enough antennas but there's no way to make a handheld with good range. The handheld CB radios that are out there are of poor quality, which makes matters worse. And there is a lot of noise and interference, and congestion in some areas. In the remote locations I have in mind I think it would be workable from that standpoint.

On the sailboat, CB SSB would work extremely well using the backstay as an antenna. CB being 27 MHz it is just barely above the top of the marine HF band, and could share the same antenna tuner with a marine HF transceiver using a coax switch. Or it could use an insulated shroud and its own tuner. With either setup, it would get excellent range to a high-quality installation in a truck or car, or a base station, on shore. But CB and handhelds don't work well together.

For the time being, there are combination GMRS and marine VHF handhelds. The FCC has very recently changed the rules on radios that can use multiple services so that may change.

@hamburking - <<< Sat phones >>>

The thing to remember is that satellite phones require a clear view of the sky. They work great in the middle of the desert or the middle of the ocean, but are easily foiled by river valleys, buildings, trees, and hills. And yes, they are expensive, even though they have come down in price.

@Cpt Pat -- <<< ham radio >>>

Great idea in principle, and I hold an amateur radio ticket myself. The trouble is I have family members and friends who would be unwilling to go through the rigamarole. For you and me the exam was just a minor nuisance to get out of the way, but not everyone's mind works like that.

<< Gotenna >>

Interesting, possibly useful, but can't cross large empty spaces so not for me.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Most people use handheld VHF and try to be discreet. Don't hail on 16, use a pre-agreed working channel, or DSC. Don't chatter. It's not legal, so I'm not advocating it, but people do it.

To be legal, use FRS (no license) or GMRS ($70 license). Note that you are now (since September, 2017) allowed to use some GMRS channels without a license so long as transmit power doesn't exceed 2 watts. But you are limited to talking between two handhelds and lose the advantage of having a good, high antenna and 25 watts of transmit power on one end.

UNLESS you decide to get fancy with it, and install a mobile GMRS radio (up to 50 watts!) with a high antenna. One like this: https://midlandusa.com/product/mxt40...e-2-way-radio/. That would be a terrific system, but would you use it enough to justify the cost? You could greatly mitigate the cost, if you're only going to use it occasionally, by hauling up the antenna on a halyard instead of fixed installing it (but be sure the antenna is a dipole or other type which doesn't need a ground plane).

A ham VHF/UHF handy-talky is a great thing for this, but both operators need to be hams, and you can't discuss business. You could, however, use a ham mobile VHF/UHF radio with fixed mount antenna (up to 50 watts!) on the mother ship on the GMRS channels, with a GMRS license (might be a slight violation if the radio is not type certified), to communicate with your shore party on a 5 watt GMRS handy talky (and their own license). That would work well, and you can use a ham VHF/UHF radio for lots of other things, if you're a ham, including using repeaters, APRS, etc.

This is a pretty comprehensive answer. We use family band or low-wattage GMRS (it came with my latest handheld and an older one has it), but really, pre-agreed channels on VHF works too, if you are brief and discreet. Something I don't actually know, but could you do a DSC to the boat at anchor from shore? It's still VHF, but you wouldn't be easily noticed!

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Thank you to everyone who posted advice and experiences.


<<< CB >>>
CB can be made to work very well with large enough antennas but there's no way to make a handheld with good range. The handheld CB radios that are out there are of poor quality, which makes matters worse. And there is a lot of noise and interference, and congestion in some areas. In the remote locations I have in mind I think it would be workable from that standpoint.

On the sailboat, CB SSB would work extremely well using the backstay as an antenna. CB being 27 MHz it is just barely above the top of the marine HF band, and could share the same antenna tuner with a marine HF transceiver using a coax switch. Or it could use an insulated shroud and its own tuner. With either setup, it would get excellent range to a high-quality installation in a truck or car, or a base station, on shore. But CB and handhelds don't work well together.

Most certainly not in my experience, never had a problem with them yet when used within design specs, and thousands of travellers in the outback would disagree with you to, I've taken of on the motorbike and still had good reception with the 4WD unit up to 10km away, if i couldn't do that i'd ditch them...

......what sort of range are you looking at?

[Jammer]

At one point I had a Honda GL1800 motorcycle with the factory CB radio, which is highly regarded, and I did in fact find that it had reasonable range for communicating with other vehicles. Using a handheld to communicate with the motorcycle we could only get a couple of miles.

It is possible that the situation is different in Australia. Perhaps the handheld radios marketed there are better. There are also two radio services classified as "CB" in your country, the "UHF CB" service which is similar to GMRS in the USA, and the 27 MHz CB which is similar to what is called CB here.

Another fact to consider is that the noise floor in the CB band in the USA is high because of the prevalence of many transmitters operated in defiance of any sort of licensing or technical standards. The FCC has pretty much written off the band as a disaster and has given up on enforcement.

I'd like to get 10 miles over water, enough to be confident of being able to stay in touch with people on shore while at anchor.

[smac999]

a pair of delorm in reaches can text each other. handy to have one on the boat anyways if no cell service.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

.. . I'd like to get 10 miles over water, enough to be confident of being able to stay in touch with people on shore while at anchor.

I can get 10 miles reliably between mother ship and handheld VHF -- over water. But I have a good antenna (Shakespeare Galaxy internal dipole) well installed (RG-214 in a straight run to the radio with no intermediate connectors) and a good radio (Icom M604). The handheld is a SH HX870 with 6 watts transmit power.

Over land is a different kettle of fish, but range is similar if you have line of sight and disappears very quickly if you don't.

YMMV very much depending on your particular setup -- I would suggest experimenting.

One other hint -- I find that digital comms on marine VHF have much greater range than phone. So a really fantastic feature of DSC handhelds is using position polling (or reporting) -- often you can find out exactly where your shore party is even if you don't have voice comms.


The suggestion above about DeLorme In Reaches is also a very good one. Cost you a bit to acquire the gear, but will totally nail this problem, and these are useful for other purposes as well. The running cost is modest and you can pause the subscription whenever you want. If you're really paranoid about this problem, then this is a really sure solution.

[toddster8]

Does your HX870 have its own MMSI or does it use the mother ship’s? Or is this a job for the “group” MMSI?
Mine just arrived today. I’m kind of leaning toward a separate MMSI because I sometimes take the Zodiac - or a kayak - off by itself for a weekend. I don’t think the designers of the system really envisioned a mobile radio that hops between different small craft...

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I can get 10 miles reliably between mother ship and handheld VHF -- over water. But I have a good antenna (Shakespeare Galaxy internal dipole) well installed (RG-214 in a straight run to the radio with no intermediate connectors) and a good radio (Icom M604). The handheld is a SH HX870 with 6 watts transmit power.

Thank you, Dockhead, that detail is extremely helpful.

YMMV very much depending on your particular setup -- I would suggest experimenting.

..nod.. I do understand that antenna and feedline matter most. I'm planning on using a 1/2 wave fiberglass antenna at the top of the mast, also.

The suggestion above about DeLorme In Reaches is also a very good one. Cost you a bit to acquire the gear, but will totally nail this problem, and these are useful for other purposes as well. The running cost is modest and you can pause the subscription whenever you want. If you're really paranoid about this problem, then this is a really sure solution.

I am very skeptical of these satellite systems because of their sensitivity to tree cover, sharp terrain, and buildings. I'd be interested in any experiences anyone has had in these environments. Perhaps the newer systems are better than the ones of olden time. My limited experience is that they really do require an unobstructed view of the sky, which is more difficult for someone to achieve on shore than a clear LOS to the water.

[Symphony]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I am very skeptical of these satellite systems because of their sensitivity to tree cover, sharp terrain, and buildings. I'd be interested in any experiences anyone has had in these environments. Perhaps the newer systems are better than the ones of olden time. My limited experience is that they really do require an unobstructed view of the sky, which is more difficult for someone to achieve on shore than a clear LOS to the water.

I have used a Delorme IN REACH for almost 3 years and I love it - one of the greatest inventions ever and a great value. But - you are right, Jammer, it has trouble with trees.

1) on a boat at sea it works superbly once I find "the spot" to hang it so that it is not bothered by mast or rigging. on french catamarans it will transmit from beneath the deck, on an Amel or Tartan it must be outside and all the way to the transom. As the boat position changes over days of passage I find that I might move The Spot by a foot or two to maintain continuous TX and RX.

2) in a car around town - almost impossible to TX or RX

3) hiking in woods - almost impossible

4) hiking on a high ridge or reaching hilltops and peaks - excellent RX and TX. Like having home wifi for my email.

my InReach has made it possible for me to do many more long passages than before because I can maintain email communications, as well as weather routing and weather forecasts. My wife and family love seeing the breadcrumbs and posts on my map (or FB or Twitter). Two Way Communication on the SOS channel. a fantastic device.

But don't ask it to work in the woods or built-up areas on land.

[hellosailor]

Jammer-
You do what ships have always done before radio was invented. You hoist the Blue Peter to the masthead and fire a cannon. Crew are expected to report without delay. Working the other way around, crew are expected to go back to the boat and ask any questions they need answered, they aren't expected to call.

Dockhead-
As I understand it, that's not quite right. "Note that you are now (since September, 2017) allowed to use some GMRS channels without a license so long as transmit power doesn't exceed 2 watts." What happened is that FRS radios are now allowed to produce up to 2 watts of output power. BUT. That still means an FRS radio, with a fixed antenna, FCC type accepted and all the other rules. AFAIK you still need a GMRS license to make any use of a GMRS radio, and that is one license per "family" meaning blood relatives only. If you're going to cheat on FRS/GMRS rules...might as well buy a cheap BaoFeng and simply cheat on them all, the fine will probably be the same for everything if you are caught anyway.

FRS, MURS, handheld CB, all legal and well documented and more or less cheap and readily available used. All the radio kludges bear some risk (thousands of dollars) for illegal use. All the fancy cellular extenders and magic radios have a habit of falling down short of their claims.

Like sailboats, radios can't beat the laws of physics. Carrier pigeons and the Blue Peter are both fairly robust ways to avoid all that bureaucracy.