can you install Seatalk1 S2G+ Yacht devices N2K autopilot parallel one lineardrive

[CaptainRivet]

Hi all,


i have an raymarine S2G/ST6001 seatalk1 autopilot with an raymarine electric lineardrive type1.

i want to install in parallel the new Yacht device Autopilot with N2K
https://www.yachtd.com/products/autopilot.html
to the S2G and connect them in parallel to one raymarine linear drive Type1.
the lineardrivetype 1 i can exchange in 10min if it breaks (have a spare onboard) and there is also no space on my Lavezzi rudder setup to install a 2nd one.


1) Can i just install the YD autopilot next to the S2G computer and y splice into the the lineardrive typ1 cables for the YD autopilot too?


2) How can i install the 2 ap so I could i switch between the two?


i have the raymarine seatalk to NG adapter installed as well as an yacht devices NMEA0183 to n2K adapter and an N2K backbone where orca core black box (supplies NMEA GPS/fastheading 10Hz+9 axis compass) and Axiom 7+ and e7d is connected

As chartplotter I run

a) the orca core+orca app

b) raymarine Axiom 7+ (and an e7d) as backup.

all of them can steer both ap.

[ManekiNeko]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

raymarine electric lineardrive type1

If you mean "Raymarine Type 1 Linear Drive 12V, M81130", I have found the specifications, and confirm its max/average current is within the YDAP-04 limits. Compatible.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

1) Can i just install the YD autopilot next to the S2G computer and y splice into the the lineardrive typ1 cables for the YD autopilot too?

2) How can i install the 2 ap so I could i switch between the two?

Well, if you electrically connect two high-power outputs together they will try fry each other. Even if one of the devices is not powered.

So you need to completely electrically decouple them.

I suggest one 4x DPDT relay, rated at least for 16 Amperes.

You will need to commutate both the Clutch circuit and the Drive circuit.

Thus, a relay with guaranteed "break before make" feature is required.

NB: two 2x DPDT relays also can be used (one exclusively for Drive, another for Clutch circuits).

NB2: relay is highly recommended to be a marine-grade or at least automotive-grade.

Tip: A latching relay is the best option because it doesn't require constant power to its coil and minimizes the risk of erratic operation due to coil power loss.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

i have the raymarine seatalk to NG adapter installed as well as an yacht devices NMEA0183 to n2K adapter and an N2K backbone where orca core black box (supplies NMEA GPS/fastheading 10Hz+9 axis compass) and Axiom 7+ and e7d is connected

As chartplotter I run

a) the orca core+orca app

b) raymarine Axiom 7+ (and an e7d) as backup.

all of them can steer both ap.

Raymarine Axiom series should be directly compatible, we have tested it and its native AP control interface should work, both on LH3 and LH4 software.

Note: "Raymarine compatible mode" should be enabled on YDAP-04.


Orca app AP control features were not tested yet. However, as Orca claims direct NMEA 2000 Ray AP control compatibility, I expect it will work, at least mode switching.
I will appreciate if you can report back with your results.

[CaptainRivet]

Hi Alex,
thank you for your answers.
do you have plans/development for an AP with a bit more current to power the drive, a 20A version?

I don't know the exact raymarine model as nothing is writen on the linear drive but there is only a Type1 12V model avaliable in short or standard but all

Type 1 12V have the same motor across all type models over the years, type 2 is simply same hardware, just a motor with double wattage.

I normally see between3 and 5A from the autopilot, never more then 8A and my boat has 7,5t displacement so it must be 12V Type 1 (<12t displacement) , means should fit. But i have a 2nd type 1 12 with a broken motor that i wanna overhaul as spare and was thinking to get the type 2 motor to have more power and that would be outside the 10/16A spec.



If i only have to decouple the 2 motors and 2 clutch wires its better to install the YD AP close to the linear drive as easier to route the NMEA Cable to.
Why use a relay, would go for a simple selector switch like this:
https://www.amazon.com/-/de/dp/B08GS...08GR2344M&th=1


instead paying 185 Euro for the adapter to old raymarine rudder sensor i would use the Garmin rudder sensor and install it additionally:
https://www.svb.de/de/garmin-ruderlagengeber-grf10.html
assume i need that cable to connect the sensor to the ap, correct?

[s/v Jedi]

Here is a quick diagram I did for a friend. He has two drives and this enables to select one or other other, or use both simultaneously.

Also, a reversible power feed with momentary double throw switch allows moving the rudder with that switch.

Now here’s a trick: instead of the feed from that reversible power switch, you can connect a second pilot (instead of manual steering) and simply switch between pilots as well as drives. You can even put each pilot on it’s own drive and let them fight it out

These is old fashioned switch based logic, a lost art almost

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here is a quick diagram I did for a friend. He has two drives and this enables to select one or other other, or use both simultaneously.

Also, a reversible power feed with momentary double throw switch allows moving the rudder with that switch.

Now here’s a trick: instead of the feed from that reversible power switch, you can connect a second pilot (instead of manual steering) and simply switch between pilots as well as drives. You can even put each pilot on it’s own drive and let them fight it out

These is old fashioned switch based logic, a lost art almost

Thank you Jedi, very interesting. Yes an almost lost art...
But that will only work with hydraulic ap which motor has a simple +/- which you switch on or off.

But have one electric linear drive means 4 cables, 2 motor and 2 clutch. The motor gets its direction from the ap, so left and right switch won't
Whats the reason you wanna have the posibility that 2 ap with 2 motors fighting each other?

Let 2 fight it out maybe works with hydraulic due to the latency of the oil but i imagine quite bad for electric drives: one electric motor wanna push right and the other left would break the gears or fry the motor coil.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here is a quick diagram I did for a friend. He has two drives and this enables to select one or other other, or use both simultaneously.

Also, a reversible power feed with momentary double throw switch allows moving the rudder with that switch.

Now here’s a trick: instead of the feed from that reversible power switch, you can connect a second pilot (instead of manual steering) and simply switch between pilots as well as drives. You can even put each pilot on it’s own drive and let them fight it out

These is old fashioned switch based logic, a lost art almost

Thank you Jedi, very interesting.
But have one electric linear drive means 4 cables, 2 motor and 2 clutch. So selecting A or B AP makes sense.
Whats the reason you wanna have the posibility that 2 ap with 2 motors fighting each other?

Let 2 fight it out maybe works with hydraulic due to the latencty of the oil but i imagine quite bad for electric drives: one electric motor wanna push right and the other left would break the gears or fry the motor coil.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Thank you Jedi, very interesting.
But have one electric linear drive means 4 cables, 2 motor and 2 clutch. So selecting A or B AP makes sense.
Whats the reason you wanna have the posibility that 2 ap with 2 motors fighting each other?

Let 2 fight it out maybe works with hydraulic due to the latencty of the oil but i imagine quite bad for electric drives: one electric motor wanna push right and the other left would break the gears or fry the motor coil.

I believe your drive works exactly like the Hynautic motor/pump combo. It is a variable voltage that determines speed and reversed polarity that determines direction.

In that case you can use the port/starboard switch to move the rudder, except it’s at full speed. Yes, you must power the solenoid too. Sundeers don’t trust the reliability from those solenoids, so we use a T-handle with morse cable to operate a bypass valve manually.


Clutch is just a binary on/off function.

The “fight it out” comment was a bad attempt for a joke

[ManekiNeko]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

do you have plans/development for an AP with a bit more current to power the drive, a 20A version?

Affirmative.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I don't know the exact raymarine model as nothing is writen on the linear drive but there is only a Type1 12V model avaliable in short or standard but all
Type 1 12V have the same motor across all type models over the years, type 2 is simply same hardware, just a motor with double wattage.

I normally see between3 and 5A from the autopilot, never more then 8A and my boat has 7,5t displacement so it must be 12V Type 1 (<12t displacement) , means should fit.

Affirmative. Raymarine Type 1 Linear Drive 12V, model M81130 current specs are well within the YDAP-04 limits.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

But i have a 2nd type 1 12 with a broken motor that i wanna overhaul as spare and was thinking to get the type 2 motor to have more power and that would be outside the 10/16A spec.

Type 2 12 Volt models [ M81131 and M81132 ] average current @ 12 Volt is 4...6 Amperes, which is well within the limits, peak current (estimated by wire gauge vs length, as manufacturer does not specify peak current directly) is ~10 Amperes, so this drive can be used.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

If i only have to decouple the 2 motors and 2 clutch wires its better to install the YD AP close to the linear drive as easier to route the NMEA Cable to.

Absolutely. High-power wires length should be minimized at all costs. Or we will lose power into heat.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Why use a relay

Ah... I was thinking of the remote post control, when you need to remotely switch between the AP untis in real time, using a remote post at helm.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

would go for a simple selector switch like this:

This switch will do the job fine.

I agree, switches should be preferred as a more reliable solution. If remote switching is not needed, use switch instead of my relay solution.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

instead paying 185 Euro for the adapter to old raymarine rudder sensor i would use the Garmin rudder sensor and install it additionally:
https://www.svb.de/de/garmin-ruderlagengeber-grf10.html

assume i need that cable to connect the sensor to the ap, correct?

I do not think so.

This is an analog sensor — it has a proprietary Garmin "12-pin rudder feedback connector" that allows to plug it directly into compatible Garmin autopilot.

It has no NMEA 2000 interface.

YDAP-04 on the other hand needs a NMEA 2000-capable Rudder angle sensor (AP gets rudder angle data over NMEA 2000, via PGN "Rudder"), and it has no analog rudder sensor feedback interface.

So if you decide to use GRF-10:
- you still will need an analog-to-NMEA 2000 converter
- as Garmin does not provide wiring diagram it is absolutely not clear how to power this GRF-10 "smart sensor" and whcih signal it outputs on which terminals, so this will need to be reverse-engineered before you can decide which analog-to-NMEA 2000 converter is compatible.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The “fight it out” comment was a bad attempt for a joke

Not quite, in aviation we got a mechanism called "mechanical adder" used for redundancy, which allows one of the drives to have "limited authority" — even when the second drive is stuck.

The simplest case is a pair of actuators connected *in series*.

I can suggest to read, say, this article for inspiration:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/288361371.pdf

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ManekiNeko

I do not think so.

This is an analog sensor — it has a proprietary Garmin "12-pin rudder feedback connector" that allows to plug it directly into compatible Garmin autopilot.

It has no NMEA 2000 interface.

Not quite, in aviation we got a mechanism called "mechanical adder" used for redundancy, which allows one of the drives to have "limited authority" — even when the second drive is stuck.

The simplest case is a pair of actuators connected *in series*.

I can suggest to read, say, this article for inspiration:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/288361371.pdf

Rivet: you can buy a straight NMEA2000 rudder sensor from B&G, Simrad or Lowrance which is model RF25. I’m sure there are other brands as well.

Neko: yes that is interesting I have no experience with flying at all, nice to learn how they do redundancy!

In my case redundancy is hydraulic with two pumps in parallel so both must pump the right way. If both are enabled, the rudder moves faster. It’s only partial redundancy because there is only one hydraulic ram.

[CaptainRivet]

Thanks for your answers.
Yes remote would be nice but i would need to rip half boat apart to route that cable. Its an emergency switch over so an easy to reach switch is ok for me.

Rudder angle sensor:
Garmin has their own adapter: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/35606
So i can also use the existing one.
Means you definitely need that adaptor. Can i put that parallel to input into S2G AP or do it need to switch that too effectively getting a 6pole switch, 4 for the lineardrive and 2 for the rudder angle sensor?
Yes the s2G puts the rudder angle on NMEA0183 and via raymarine adapter to N2K but i wanna have that independent from the raymarine ap.