Backstay antenna length decision

[MicHughV]

WOM, High Seas Radio, in Ft. Lauderdale used to have an antenna farm...you name it...they had it...many other land based hams have a variety of antenna's of every description sprouting from their rooftops.

Many Atlantic sailors might recall Herb Hilgenberg's " Southbound II" weather forecasts. Herb also had a variety of antenna's in his backyard, including an end fed long wire, which, more often than not, was his " go to " antenna. He would communicate daily with yachts in every part of the Atlantic using that wire.

I have tried to avoid getting into the " technical" aspects of antenna's because really..on a sailboat...options are limited.

Selecting an appropriate antenna for a sailboat is only one part of the puzzle.
Getting it tuned is another, and learning how to use a Ham radio is another.

Finally, it behoves any seaborn Ham to spend time on the airwaves and learn what frequency to use when. In addition, the ham sailor needs to learn about various and sundry sun spot cycles, best frequency's to use, when, etc.
No point in trying to communicate with someone that is not listening.

Most ham radio's are made for the hobbyist. There are countless knobs and switches on a Ham radio. These are there so the ham enthusiast can twiddle away to his hearts content.
A SSB radio does away with all this, but these days one can purchase a radio that can tx/rx on both SSB and Ham bands.

This topic is way to complex for someone wanting to select an antenna for his boat. I reiterate, an end fed long wire, with a good tuner, is about as good as you can get on a sailboat.

What is more important is to learn who is listening...on what bands...and when. This takes time sitting at the radio with a notepad.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Wow, this is still going???
So, can we all now please just let derfy use his HF radio, and have fun??
I mean, hasn't this gone on and on, a bit too much?

Fair winds.

John

Nice setups...both on land and sea!

[derfy]

Dear all, as promised, just a follow up from the original OP...


Installation was completed in late Jan, using KISS Ground in aft lazarette, and backstay antenna length of 56 ft with tuner mounted in lazarette.



SWR is at 1 for nearly all frequencies. 1.1-1.2 in just a couple of places. It is quite good.


The tuner tunes really fast, and, at 80 meters, I have an SWR of one even when I bypass the tuner.



Audio transmissions on the 60 meter ham band from my home port in NC, at 60 watt output power, were received clearly by stations in Virginia, NY, and NJ. They did not hear chop from my cheap switching 12 v > 13.8 booster.



I used the Ham unit on a 3-day southbound passage from Beaufort NC to St Augustine - monitoring Chris Parker mainly, and also Cruzheimers and receiving weatherfax on my tablet.


I have to say I did not obtain a single piece of useful, actionable information from the Ham/SSB during the passage.



Most audio was mumbled and in short hand - with lots of assumed context - like people chatting across the table from each other in a coffee shop. No effort is made to separate word spacing or enunciate syllables clearly in a high-noise channel. I was using a good headset and wearing my hearing aids. I am amazed they can understand each other.



My received signal is generally noisy - probably too noisy.



I tried several things, all of which helped. a) Tuning the antenna - even when just receiving. b) using the NR feature of my Ham DSP, c) using and tuning the Noise Blocker, to try to compensate for ripple on the 13.8 V switcher - I suspect I need more filtering on that. d) playing the RIT and IF SHIFT controls. I may try ordering some IF filters for my Icom 718. Could help. Narrowing bandwidth always does.



Generally the received audio remained a bit too noisy and garbled. Probably my 65 year old hearing is just too far gone for it to work for me.



So, thus far I did not find SSB or Ham to be a useful tool for passage-making.



Maybe Winlink will turn out to be more useful. That is Phase II of my project.


A footnote- Our early February passage was uneventful and we cruised the Florida east coast as far south as West Palm. As the COVID panic ensued, we returned to North Carolina - arriving home a couple of weeks ago. We were quite enjoying ourselves up until then.


Cheers and Best Regards


Derfy

[Boatguy30]

The Cruiseheimers is pretty informal. Did you perhaps have the fridge, inverter, alternator going when you had the noise on the channel? Every day is different, but 1/2 the boats generally come in pretty well on the average day. Reception in S Florida is commonly pretty bad.

[derfy]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

The Cruiseheimers is pretty informal. Did you perhaps have the fridge, inverter, alternator going when you had the noise on the channel? Every day is different, but 1/2 the boats generally come in pretty well on the average day. Reception in S Florida is commonly pretty bad.

Well, on passage in the Atlantic - fridge and inverter is always running. HF Radio is powered by a cheap 12v>13.8 switching regulator (ie "battery booster" ) so the conducted transients on the 12v battery rail would have to get thru that, or be radiated into the radio and receiver.


I have both common-mode and differential-mode ferrite cores on the power supplies to the radio, and common mode ferrites on both ends of the coax and control cables to the tuner.


I did not bother to try to use the radio when the diesel or genset was running - I knew I would never be able to pick out audio with that kind of ambient audio noise. I have also lost most of the midband hearing in one ear and the high frequency response in both ears. Have pretty good hearing aids, however, and good headphones.



I have spent my life designing commercial and mil spec electronics, and know that receivers are especially tricky to get right. I suspect it can be cleaned up a bit.



I checked my VFO accuracy against WWV and it was right on, within a hertz, and 10 and 15 Mhz. So I think my crystal is not too far off. I noticed tweaking the RIT did very little to improve reception. IF SHIFT seems to help quite a bit more, which is why I am thinking some IF filters might be useful. These are optional hardware filters that can be ordered for my unit.

[Brian.D]

SWAG here but you might try also connecting your tuner ground lug to seawater. It can't hurt but might help. Try it as an experiment next time you are on.

What radio are you using. I looked in previous posting but might have missed that info.

[Jim Cate]

You might also try running the 718 directly off the 12 v house supply. You may not get full output power, but it will not affect the rx end of things, and would eliminate the noisy booster from the picture. However, there are often multiple noise sources on a modern cruising boat, and tracking them down can be a chore. If your fridge uses a Danfoss compressor, they are notorious for broad band RFI, sadly with no known cure other than turning off.

And FWIW, I run my Icom 746 off house power all the time, get ~50 W output and find that quite adequate. Finally, most ham signals have reasonable to excellent audio, so I suspect that your distorted sound issues are at your end, not theirs.

Jim

VK4GFT/N9GFT

[Davo1404]

Just following up from Jim's comments. Yes my fridge compressor definitely puts a lot of noise into my 718. Also the Victron mppt controller contributes as well.

[ka4wja]

Derfy,

Sorry you're having troubles....but, if I can be so bold (hopefully not rude) as to give you (and everyone here) a reminder of what I, and many others experienced in HF comms, have been trying to impart here for years / decades, as well as make a few hard, blunt recommendations?

Originally Posted by derfy

>>>>>>
Audio transmissions on the 60 meter ham band from my home port in NC, at 60 watt output power, were received clearly by stations in Virginia, NY, and NJ. They did not hear chop from my cheap switching 12 v > 13.8 booster.

I used the Ham unit on a 3-day southbound passage from Beaufort NC to St Augustine - monitoring Chris Parker mainly, and also Cruzheimers and receiving weatherfax on my tablet.

I have to say I did not obtain a single piece of useful, actionable information from the Ham/SSB during the passage.

Most audio was mumbled and in short hand - with lots of assumed context - like people chatting across the table from each other in a coffee shop. No effort is made to separate word spacing or enunciate syllables clearly in a high-noise channel. I was using a good headset and wearing my hearing aids. I am amazed they can understand each other.

My received signal is generally noisy - probably too noisy.

I tried several things, all of which helped. a) Tuning the antenna - even when just receiving. b) using the NR feature of my Ham DSP, c) using and tuning the Noise Blocker, to try to compensate for ripple on the 13.8 V switcher - I suspect I need more filtering on that. d) playing the RIT and IF SHIFT controls. I may try ordering some IF filters for my Icom 718. Could help. Narrowing bandwidth always does.

Generally the received audio remained a bit too noisy and garbled. Probably my 65 year old hearing is just too far gone for it to work for me.

So, thus far I did not find SSB or Ham to be a useful tool for passage-making.


Maybe Winlink will turn out to be more useful. That is Phase II of my project.

Originally Posted by derfy

Well, on passage in the Atlantic - fridge and inverter is always running. HF Radio is powered by a cheap 12v>13.8 switching regulator (ie "battery booster" ) so the conducted transients on the 12v battery rail would have to get thru that, or be radiated into the radio and receiver.
Derfy, forgive my bluntness, but if scrap the "battery booster" altogether, I suspect a good bit of your reception troubles will go away....
And, fyi, it's not conducted RFI that's the issue here (we generally don't see issues with that in modern gear), its radiated RFI....and probably a great deal being radiated by your battery booster itself!

And, everyone I've ever spoken to that runs an inverter all the time, and/or when at sea, and/or when trying to use an HF radio has had lots of RFI issues!! Every single one!! (some worse than others....one guy even had his transceiver installed professionally, and the "professional" mounted it directly to the case of his big 2000 watt inverter....no BS, true story!)
But, yes....every single boat that I've heard on the air, seen with my own eyes, or spoken to on phone / emailed / etc., that has tried to run an inverter (even the pricey signwave ones, with filters, etc.) while using the radio, simply gave you....everyone...


I have both common-mode and differential-mode ferrite cores on the power supplies to the radio, and common mode ferrites on both ends of the coax and control cables to the tuner.
Nothing wrong with ferrites, but fyi I doubt these are really helping with your receive noise issue....

See my details below...


I did not bother to try to use the radio when the diesel or genset was running - I knew I would never be able to pick out audio with that kind of ambient audio noise. I have also lost most of the midband hearing in one ear and the high frequency response in both ears. Have pretty good hearing aids, however, and good headphones.
I suspect trying it without hearing aids, but taking all the steps I recommend below, will work better....
If you still have difficulty with speech intelligibility, there are equalizers that can be added to the speaker and headphone output of the radio that can help....
But, please follow all recommendations below, first!


I have spent my life designing commercial and mil spec electronics, and know that receivers are especially tricky to get right. I suspect it can be cleaned up a bit.
It can be cleaned up a lot!
Just follow the recommendations below....and I think you'll be in good shape!


I checked my VFO accuracy against WWV and it was right on, within a hertz, and 10 and 15 Mhz. So I think my crystal is not too far off. I noticed tweaking the RIT did very little to improve reception. IF SHIFT seems to help quite a bit more, which is why I am thinking some IF filters might be useful. These are optional hardware filters that can be ordered for my unit.

[First a quick comment / caveat....the only few with hearing loss that I've seen use HF radio (including one of my late good friends and my late father), have never worn their hearing aids when using the radio....and while, I've actually never thought about this issue until this evening, I cannot imagine how they'd help, and can only assume they are part of the problem....so, try the radio without your hearing aids, but with a nice pair of communications headsets/headphones, and you may find things to be much better...]


1) No matter how much knowledge / experience someone has in "tech" and/or in "engineering", "communications", etc., there is a indisputable fact that those new to HF communications, particularly those new to the receiving of HF signals in our modern RFI-infested world, are surprised at how much "noise" (RFI) is present these days....but when they finally learn the basics (that I will outline immediately below), most see the light and find excellent / low-noise HF communications are not only possible, but quite typical!



2) Here are the basics....Success in HF comms is almost exclusively determined by three important factors:

a) operator knowledge/skill/expertise....including knowledge of radiowave propagation (nature), RFI (man-made noise), and actual knowledge of how to properly use their radio (make proper adjustments, not just doing what the marketing guys hype), etc.

b) maximizing receive signal-to-noise ratio (S/N)....this is the ultimate goal (on all sides of the communications paths)!!

c) antenna system design / installation (including the importance of distance of the antenna system, from any RFI generating devices)




3) In regards to "noisy" signals (too much noise in your receiver)....Much of the receive RFI in HF maritime (ham band and/or marine band) communications these days, is generated on board our own boats!!

{I've made note of many of the plethora of items that so many have on board, that generates / radiates RFI / "noise".....everything from automatic bilge-pump sensors, digital metering, etc....all the way to the obvious items like inverters, chargers, switch-mode power supplies, etc....have a look at the links in the reference "stickies" at the top of Cruiser's Forum Marine Electronics page, for a lot of details on RFI, etc.}


~~~~~~~~~



4) So, now that I laid out some hard, indisputable facts....how about I give you some pretty easy-peasy ways to make things work? It's all FREE!!! You shouldn't need to spend any money!!

{please understand that while I'm not on your boat, and do not have hearing issues, and as such cannot hear the "noise" you're receiving in different configs, nor see your S-meter as you change things, nor actually see how your radio is wired / set-up....I am going by what you write here, and use my 45+ years of HF comms actual experience (and studying / teaching / etc)....so, while I cannot be 100% certain of your exact issues, I absolutely will not recommend anything that I'm not 95% sure of, nor anything I would not do on my own offshore cruising boat, nor any other boat for sailing offshore / across oceans!}


Also, please know that there are proven, long-standing (and almost indisputable) reasons for these recommendations.....and, while I've not only done this for decades, and taught much of this for decades, and I (and others) have written about much of this in detail in ham radio postings over the years....I will only delve into the details here in this thread, if needed later...so, if you could please accept the facts as I lay them out, and then take my recommendations as well engineered, you should be much better off...



a) Number 1 on the list....please disconnect / remove your "battery booster"....no matter that you mention that others on the air cannot detect any noise on your transmit signal (they most probably never would, even if you ran your rig off an unfiltered battery charger), this is one piece of equipment that must be removed / disconnected (not just switched-off)....although keeping your IC-718 supplied with 12.4 to 12.6vdc min under transmit is important, it will work fine on receive all the way down to 11vdc, and if you use adequate sized 12vdc wiring direct to your battery bank (not thru breaker/dist panel, nor buss bar....but direct to battery bank, using fuses/breaker), you should never need any "battery booster", as can be needed in parked cars, with small non-deep-cycle battery systems.......and no matter what some "yahoo down the dock" tells you, there is almost no instances of "dirty dc" causing problems in HF comms!! (inside sensitive systems, sure....but feeding an HF transceiver directly from your vessel's house batteries is almost always, 99.99%, going to be just fine) Leave the snake oil in the car!



b) Number 2 on the list....switch off and disconnect your "inverter"...(even if just for a few tests)...this doesn't mean switch it to "standby" (off), this means disconnect it / totally remove 12vdc input...never seen an inverter on-board, nor any marine / budget / consumer grade switch-mode power supply that didn't radiate enough RFI to cause issues...and being just feet away from your HF antenna, they need to be completely un-powered (again, at least for testing/evaluation....but usually not needed except to run a microwave for a few minutes, etc....as just about everything else on-board is better run directly from vessel's main DC power source)


{some also have issues with some MPPT Solar Charge Controllers....I have excellent results from Blue Sky controllers (my controllers are just inches away from my M-802, and my panels are just inches away from my backstay antenna....and Morningstar controllers also have a good rep for being fairly RFI clean, as well...I've heard bad comments about Victron and Magnum....just saying, equipping with the right systems sometimes requires research...}


c) Number 3 on the list....on your IC-718, switch off the pre-amp (receive pre-amp), on all communications below 15mhz....and on almost all (95%) of communications below 21mhz / 22mhz....and on most (> 75%) comms from 21 thru 30mhz....{FYI, the venerable Icom HF marine rigs, M-802, M-710, M-700, etc. etc. almost all commercial, aviation, maritime HF receivers made in past 40+ years, etc., do NOT have a receive pre-amp at all!! They are not needed, and almost always cause too many issues, including contributing to receive noise issues!! Note that this for HF (and MF, LF, VLF, etc....NOT for vhf/uhf/microwave)...}

General rule: Leave it OFF all the time....




d) Number 4 on the list....make sure your IC-718's RF Gain control is NOT set-up as its default, as this reduces its adjustment range and effectiveness....(use the initial set menu, to make sure you have it set as just an RF Gain control, only.)

Then adjust RF gain down a bit....You will almost never want to have RF Gain at maximum...(turn AF Gain / Volume up as needed)

It can take some experience to know exactly how / when it adjust your RF Gain...but, in general, on bands below 10mhz you'll turn the RF Gain down at nighttime and even late afternoons....and depending on your actual on-board RFI, you may find turning it down more often... On bands from 10mhz thru 14mhz, adjust RF Gain up as needed, but many times not to maximum (and similar on bands up to 20mhz)..... On bands above 20mhz, you can usually turn RF gain to maximum (unless you have high noise levels / high receive RFI)




e) Number 5 on the list is going to sound nonsensical, but please understand this IS normal operating for most HF systems....turn OFF your IC-718's noise blanker!! You do not need it...as, unless you're at the dock / near some shore-side noise, you shouldn't have any "impulse noise" for it to be needed....AND, and fyi, except for the venerable Drake TR-7's noise blanker (from the late 1970's) communications receivers' noise blankers disrupt / disturb audio intelligibility, if there is significant impulse noise (such as gasoline-engine ignition noise, or HF over-the-horizon-radar) this trade-off is accepted, but other than that, it is almost universally accepted to not use a "noise blanker" at all....and especially with weak signals (and/or especially in crowded bands...and/or in "noise-limited" situations, such as where you have significant receive noise that is already taxing the receiver)..in these situations the noise blanker just makes everything worse!

Yes, you write that it improved things for you, as it helped with the RFI from your battery booster, and I believe you.....but, if you didn't have the RF noise from the battery booster, you wouldn't need the noise blanker, and you'd see how it can distort / disrupt received audio!! {Fyi, it will be just as bad, or worse, if attempting HF digital comms, such as Winlink and/or Sailmail!!}



Please take note the first 5 recommendations here (a thru e) will most probably solve 95% of your issues....but have a go with the rest as well...and even go for #5....



f) Number 6 on the list (assuming your 718 is equipped with the UT-106 option) is to turn off your IC-718's optional AF-DSP "noise reduction" (NR)...at least for testing / evaluation, and perhaps you'll never need it!

Yes, you may find it useful in dealing with some natural noise / band noise....and it may also mitigate some RFI noise in your receiver passband....but, if you can simply rid your boat of most of the RFI, you're going to be much better off!!

And, again here, this might be a feature that is hearing specific....I know every time I've tried AF DSP "noise reduction", it might reduce some noise but almost always reduces voice intelligibility....so, in this, your mileage may vary!



g) Next on the list, are some other issues that you mention....

---- Forget about your transmit SWR....the remote tuner (AT-140, AT-130, AH-2, AH-4, SG-230) will provide a decent SWR to the transmitter with just about anything metallic connected to it....so your measured transmit SWR is fairly inconsequential to this discussion of receive noise...

---- See if you can provide your HF antenna system with an actual antenna ground, like the sea water.....use a low-inductive connection directly to the sea water will improve your receive noise levels as well as improve your transmit efficiencies...(understand that the KISS Ground is not an antenna ground)


---- If you've tuned the stations in correctly (they don't sound like Donald Duck), the RIT will do nothing for you...leave it off!

--- The IF shift can help if you have some frequency-specific interference / narrow birdie interference, but that doesn't sound like anything you're experiencing? Although it is possible if you have some significant frequency-dependent hearing loss that adjusting the IF shift can improve voice intelligibility? So, while in most cases, use of IF shift will have no effect on noisy communications, in your case you can certainly try it and see.

---- As for buying / adding narrower IF filters? Of course, narrowing your IF bandwidth can technically improve S/N....but in the case of external noise / RFI (unlike when dealing with internal noise / radio's noise figure), this is just chasing your tail! Again, if you had some serious frequency-specific hearing loss, it is possible (although very unlikely!) that a narrower IF filter and manipulation of the IF shift, could improve voice intelligibility to your ears....but, to be honest, this would be a one-in-a-million shot, and I'd only recommend this after you tried all the other options...besides, it would cost you money, and all the rest here is free!





---- FYI, be aware that because the IC-718's AGC is fixed...and from the factory / unmodified, it's really not that great acting AGC, and can be pumped quite easily by both strong signals and noise......sorry to say this is another reason to steer clear of the 718 / 78....it's older brother (the 746) is a fine radio, though....as is its bigger older brother, the 756 series....fyi, the M-802 and the IC-756ProIII are kinda "kissing cousins"...




Then.............

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


5) Then start learning about on-board HF communications....including tracking down any / all remaining on-board RFI generating devices / systems, and either removing them or switching them off when testing (or when using the HF radio)!! {and, if you're at the dock, you can accept that you will probably have some shore-side RFI, but getting just 1/2 mile out away from anything on shore, should be far enough....and is a great idea for your testing / evaluation...}


To be clear, if you actually do all the above (scrap the battery booster, disconnect the inverter, turn off the IC-718's pre-amp, set-up the RF Gain control properly and turn it down a bit, turn off noise blanker, and at least temporarily turn off noise reduction....as well as get a decent antenna ground), you might just find operating HF on-board to be darn easy, and with little noise to worry about....BUT...

But, it's possible that you may also have a few (or many) other on-board sources of RFI....and you'll need to find them (easy-peasy.....just have NOTHING at all on board supplied with any power at all, except for your IC-718, nothing at all.....then, supply power to ONE system/item at a time, then turn it on an use it, and observe any changes in your IC-718's receive noise level on many different bands / freqs.....then turn it off AND remove all power from it.....then go onto the next system / item, and do the same thing....and so on, and so on....yes, it can be time consuming, but it will cost you no money, and you will learn a lot in the process!!)

Please stop here and read this next sentence twice....

How/where else are you going to improve your on-board HF communications AND learn about HF communications / RFI, all at the same time....all for FREE?
(re-read this last sentence and think....there are many "experts" that will tell you to "do this", or "buy that", etc....and they're more than happy to tell you how to spend your money, but none / few are actually trying to help you learn / educate yourself....and if you read / follow the procedures and recommendations above, it won't cost you any money and you will learn a lot....so, what have you got to loose??)



6) Once you've done all the above in #4 a thru f (and maybe "g" as well)....and then have done all here in #5, and found / removed as much of your on-board RFI as possible....then and only then, should you need to add any ferrites onto the offending systems/items cables....(understand that ferrites on your HF radio system's cables are primarily to reduce/mitigate transmit RFI.....and while adding ferrites onto OTHER systems cables on-board is usually to mitigate/reduce/eliminate receive RFI, it actually helps in both transmit RFI and receive RFI...)

Please note that adding ferrites to other systems on-board is almost always a last-case fix (yes, I know that "everyone" tells you to add ferrites, and they can't hurt, but the real fact is in most cases, they are band aids, not solutions...), distance between your HF antenna and any of these items/systems on board is what helps the most (of course, not having receive RFI generating devices on board is the best solution....most of us have some, like the narrow-band birdies from our fridges, generated by Dafoss compressor controller DC-DC inverters....we either deal with the minor inconvenience, add ferrites where we can, and/or switch some things off when operating...)



7) As for your future use on Winlink? Well, you're going to need to perfect your voice operations first, otherwise you're likely to think your radio is better as a dinghy anchor!

Also, be aware that from the factory an un-modified IC-718 has a fairly long T/R change-over recovery time (and a fixed AGC), and as such suffers from connection issues in TOR modes....you can usually get connected ok, but many find they loose connection after a few....(I don't have the mod off the top of my head, but it was an update / mod from Icom, so it should be easy to find on-line)


Derfy, there is a lot more to go over....but, since all of this is covered in the stickies above (and some covered in the free Youtube videos), I think hitting the highlights here should be enough for now?

Fair winds.

John


P.S. I hope some can see now, why marine HF gear is designed / built the way they are....and why having so many (mostly unnecessary) adjustments in ham gear can be detrimental to inexperienced operators?

Unfortunately, I actually see/hear many "experienced" hams turn on their pre-amps and/or run their RF gains wide open all the time....and most always complain about QRM and how "noisy" the bands are, and/or how bad propagation is....(a late good friend, who was an excellent electronic repair tech, actually one of the best circuit troubleshooters I've ever met, a real genius in that field...well, he was one of those who ran the gain wide open and bitched about all the noise...a great friend, but not a successful HF operator)....take a look at what actually works in HF communications, not just what the marketing guys hype, and you'll learn a lot!

[davil]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

The tuner sees the lead wire and the backstay section as part of it's length. So it's generally pretty random unless you measure exactly. I usually put the top isolator 6' from the masthead and the lower above the Bimini or head height.

On my own boat I generally use a single wide hung inside a line. 33' or I think I currently have 23' 1/8" lifeline cable crimped direct to tuner lug.

=================================
what is a "single wide hung inside a line"?
sorry my ignorance.

like to ask you about your antenna specifics.
Are you running a lifeline straight to the tuner without the gto?
23 ft from the tuner?

Appreciate your patience.

[davil]

believe there been postings having an "emergency" gto wire attached to a back stay?shroud?
thanks

[Brian.D]

Davil, I think that is a typo. Some put copper wire in a rope, replacing the core of the rope, and use that for their antenna. My preference would be lifeline material, or wirerope which is vinyl coated SS wire.

And not to lecture, but the actual antenna starts at the tuner lug. So what ever wire you use, the total length will be from the tuner lug.

[davil]

Brian
thank you so much
no, do not feel like lecture, I always appreciate the time and patience you and John dedicate to educate to "ineducable"
I gather the cover been vinyl or otherwise is to protect people from been shock ?
thank you again
David

[Brian.D]

Davil, that and to protect the wire itself. I personally do not recommend copper as it will stretch, even if well protected. Of course, the wire is probably free-floating in the rope and not stressed. Although copper is a great conductor, I don't think there will be much difference in transmit and receive operations using vinyl coated stainless steel wire. Bill Trayfors recommended using lifeline material for his vertical dipoles.

Again. JMHO

[davil]

Brian
thank you
very nice article
right for a rainy dark day
appreciated
take care
David