Where Should Cruisers Live?

[wolfgal]

as i read the responses, i realise how most people do not have to worry about maintaining a place of residence so to avoid double taxation or losing certain (worked-for) benefits like basic healthcare.

first off, many will surely understand when i say that exposing myself to double taxation is not a challenge i personally want to undertake.

and from what i understand, as a resident, my health care benefits extend across the globe to specific domtom countries, martinique, guadeloupe, tahiti, la reunion... to name a few. also, it seems that, given residence status, one can choose to purchase a much less-expensive travel insurance (more of the holiday type), which makes it easier to make travel insurance a part of the equation



to maintain residence status, one needs to reside six months in the country, at an address, proven fundamentally by having the address' electric bill in one's name.

easy enough, but now, data from the new-and-improved electrical boxes can be used to legally prove or disprove absence/presence. so it is not as if the lock-up-n-leave solution would do the trick.

nor can one simply stay with family/friends anymore: nowadays, if someone stays in your home, their income is combined to yours so to determine your property taxes.

i wish it was as simple as selling the house, getting rid of stuff, setting up a mail service, and shoving off..., but, life has it that there is a bit more to consider

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

as i read the responses, i realise how most people do not have to worry about maintaining a place of residence so to avoid double taxation or losing certain (worked-for) benefits like basic healthcare.

first off, many will surely understand when i say that exposing myself to double taxation is not a challenge i personally want to undertake.

and from what i understand, as a resident, my health care benefits extend across the globe to specific domtom countries, martinique, guadeloupe, tahiti, la reunion... to name a few. also, it seems that, given residence status, one can choose to purchase a much less-expensive travel insurance (more of the holiday type), which makes it easier to make travel insurance a part of the equation

to maintain residence status, one needs to reside six months in the country, at an address, proven fundamentally by having the address' electric bill in one's name.

easy enough, but now, data from the new-and-improved electrical boxes can be used to legally prove or disprove absence/presence. so it is not as if the lock-up-n-leave solution would do the trick.

nor can one simply stay with family/friends anymore: nowadays, if someone stays in your home, their income is combined to yours so to determine your property taxes.

i wish it was as simple as selling the house, getting rid of stuff, setting up a mail service, and shoving off..., but, life has it that there is a bit more to consider

A lot of cruisers live without being resident anywhere.

Health insurance can be purchased and will in many places be cheaper than paying taxes in a foreign country.

There can be tax advantages of being a nomad. Being a nomad without any legal residence anywhere does not increase the risk of double taxation. A U.S. citizen pays tax on worldwide income but may exclude the first $107 600 of earned income (that is, salary and self-employment income but not passive income). That (tax on income about $107k, running through the brackets from zero) may be the only tax you pay if you don't stay more than half a year in any other country and don't establish yourself in another way which triggers tax residency. Google "digital nomad" and you'll find a ton of information -- this is a situation faced by thousands of tech and remote workers who wander around the world.

Estonia has a specific visa for digital nomads, encouraging them to come live in beautiful Tallinn or on one of the Estonian islands, tax-free as long as they don't stay over more than half of any year.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

as i read the responses, i realise how most people do not have to worry about maintaining a place of residence so to avoid double taxation...................

Having the ownership of a house ashore and a vessel of adequate size for a home does not necessarily result in double taxation. The Florida registration for my 41' vessel was about $180/year with no other form of tax. Maybe I'm not understanding this comment.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Absolutely correct! Living on board whilst on the hard is AWFUL in my opinion. Especially if on a marine railway where the boat is tilted aft a few degrees.

Sheer misery!

Jim

If it's more than a couple of days on the hard get a short term apartment (like an airbnb).

Agreed, it's not fun living on the hard.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If it's more than a couple of days on the hard get a short term apartment (like an airbnb).

Agreed, it's not fun living on the hard.

I've spent long periods of time living on the hard. It's "hard". But it's of course possible. Like living in a tree house. I've always done it where the yard didn't mind a small amount of grey water discharge, so was always able to wash dishes, brush teeth, etc. But shower and toilet in the ablutions block -- a long cold ladder away. When not alone, I always rented an AirBnB. Otherwise survived up to a couple of months like that, and most years a couple of weeks. But being put into the water after that was always S W E E T.


I've had PARTIES on board when on the hard -- the most improbable setting, but no less jolly.

[hpeer]

We just spent 5 months on the hard.

Killed our legs.

I am tempted to say “Never again” but we are just so cheap.

Then again, motel is cheaper than busted knees.

[Chotu]

Ok the hard living. And advantage to an all air cooled design.

Refrigerator
Freezer
Air conditioning
Heat
Generator
Head

All fully functional afloat or on the hard.

Dishes like dockhead says.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

...

and from what i understand, as a resident, my health care benefits extend across the globe to specific domtom countries, martinique, guadeloupe, tahiti, la reunion... to name a few. also, it seems that, given residence status, one can choose to purchase a much less-expensive travel insurance (more of the holiday type), which makes it easier to make travel insurance a part of the equation

to maintain residence status, one needs to reside six months in the country, at an address, proven fundamentally by having the address' electric bill in one's name.

easy enough, but now, data from the new-and-improved electrical boxes can be used to legally prove or disprove absence/presence. so it is not as if the lock-up-n-leave solution would do the trick.

nor can one simply stay with family/friends anymore: nowadays, if someone stays in your home, their income is combined to yours so to determine your property taxes.

i wish it was as simple as selling the house, getting rid of stuff, setting up a mail service, and shoving off..., but, life has it that there is a bit more to consider

So you are not a French citizen? Idk the 'residency' rules, but a doctor's visit for me in Paris a few years ago was $30Euro (no insurance involved), the same as my co-pay in the USA where the full price of such a visit would have been several hundred $$. My point is that most heath care needs outside the USA are very reasonable without any health insurance. Many cruisers just carry 'catastrophe' travel insurance, which is inexpensive when it excludes the USA or self-insure.

From my discussions with foreigners, insuring everything is a USA phenomena likely due to our sue happy culture. Many of the foreigners we met didn't have boat insurance or have any special healthcare. When a poor french boat dragged into an acquaintance in Grenada and did several thousand in damage, there was no insurance involved and no exchange of money as far as I know... just part of the risk of cruising... Had the French boat been wealthy, then I'm sure (i hope) they would have covered the cost of the damage out of pocket, but this guy had no money.

[Hoodsail]

We aren’t cruisers, but sailors here in the northeast of the us of a. So boat is on the hard 6 months, in town marina other 6. Property tax in CT is moderate for the house, which we consider the “cost of admission”, while tax on boat is minimal, est < $200/yr. looked up and down the eastern seaboard as far south as Edenton, NC...Hpeer, love the lite house at the end of Main Street. Was thinking of moving there upon retirement but two blocks on either side of main str many houses were abandoned wrecks....still like that? So boat yard is 7 min drive from house and Guilford town marina is 3 minute drive from house. No hurricanes, except very, very rarely...and a one day sail to block island and then the North Atlantic..Winters will probably be spent traveling in US or EU or ??? Back in time to splash her...hope to cruise seriously in about 1 yr!! So my vote would be the Northeast.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A lot of cruisers live without being resident anywhere.

Health insurance can be purchased and will in many places be cheaper than paying taxes in a foreign country.

There can be tax advantages of being a nomad. Being a nomad without any legal residence anywhere does not increase the risk of double taxation. A U.S. citizen pays tax on worldwide income but may exclude the first $107 600 of earned income (that is, salary and self-employment income but not passive income). That (tax on income about $107k, running through the brackets from zero) may be the only tax you pay if you don't stay more than half a year in any other country and don't establish yourself in another way which triggers tax residency. Google "digital nomad" and you'll find a ton of information -- this is a situation faced by thousands of tech and remote workers who wander around the world.

Estonia has a specific visa for digital nomads, encouraging them to come live in beautiful Tallinn or on one of the Estonian islands, tax-free as long as they don't stay over more than half of any year.

thanks Dockhead. yes the tech savy nomads do seem to manage it pretty well. they amaze me. and youtube is becoming populated with quite a few of these. the other day, i ran across one guy who has made nomad consulting his business. he has a collection of passports from all over.

i've looked, rather superficially, into this option a few times, enough to know that even when i succeed in severing my material ties here (so to skirt their very broad definitions of a fiscal resident), their interest clearly lies in roping me in. i'd need to find someone trustworthy who really knows the rules in both countries who can help. i do not want to accidentally get myself into a legal pinch.

Estonia... tempt me! it is true that life can be so rich!
getting there...



in any case, i am looking at this.

thanks

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by zstine

So you are not a French citizen? Idk the 'residency' rules, but a doctor's visit for me in Paris a few years ago was $30Euro (no insurance involved), the same as my co-pay in the USA where the full price of such a visit would have been several hundred $$. My point is that most heath care needs outside the USA are very reasonable without any health insurance. Many cruisers just carry 'catastrophe' travel insurance, which is inexpensive when it excludes the USA or self-insure.

From my discussions with foreigners, insuring everything is a USA phenomena likely due to our sue happy culture. Many of the foreigners we met didn't have boat insurance or have any special healthcare. When a poor french boat dragged into an acquaintance in Grenada and did several thousand in damage, there was no insurance involved and no exchange of money as far as I know... just part of the risk of cruising... Had the French boat been wealthy, then I'm sure (i hope) they would have covered the cost of the damage out of pocket, but this guy had no money.

citizenship and residence in a country give different advantages. like in many places, a citizen needs to be a resident to access the healthcare system.

and yes, the cost of healthcare in the states is unfathomable.

[bergius]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But shower and toilet in the ablutions block -- a long cold ladder away.

I ended up sleeping on board for a week on the hard a while back. Having a chemical toilet (we have a about-50€ Porta Potti) made a huge difference there.

Of course if the boat had a composting toilet, even better...

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by bergius

I ended up sleeping on board for a week on the hard a while back. Having a chemical toilet (we have a about-50€ Porta Potti) made a huge difference there.

Of course if the boat had a composting toilet, even better...

since i've volunteered as 'handy crew' (to learn about boat systems and how to fix things) over the years, i've actually spent much more time on the hard than floating. and i've really enjoyed it, even though it is tougher, especially in a cold, ripping wind (and, worse, rain).

two observations:

one hand on the ladder: i've heard stories of falls!!!

and yes, the composting head gets my vote hands down. a pee jar is one thing, but the mad scurry to the far-off facilities is another. luckily everyone on the hard gets quick wisdom: knows to hold off from having a morning chat until you are headed back...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

thanks Dockhead. yes the tech savy nomads do seem to manage it pretty well. they amaze me. and youtube is becoming populated with quite a few of these. the other day, i ran across one guy who has made nomad consulting his business. he has a collection of passports from all over.

i've looked, rather superficially, into this option a few times, enough to know that even when i succeed in severing my material ties here (so to skirt their very broad definitions of a fiscal resident), their interest clearly lies in roping me in. i'd need to find someone trustworthy who really knows the rules in both countries who can help. i do not want to accidentally get myself into a legal pinch.

Estonia... tempt me! it is true that life can be so rich!
getting there...

in any case, i am looking at this.

thanks

Most European tax consultants can help you with that. I have a good one in Estonia if you need a reference.


The main things about living as a nomad:


1. Avoid spending more than 182 days in any one country.
2. Avoid falling into some other definition of residency (center of interest, maintaining a home base, etc.).
3. Make health care arrangements of some kind.
4. Keep really good documents.


The nomad life is not for everyone -- most people I guess crave having a home base. In that case choose a place you like and with good taxation considering the type of income you have. Estonia has a flat tax of 20% on earned income and low or no tax on different kinds of dividends and capital gains. The taxes on passive income in Sweden and Finland are not that bad (less than the U.S.) and considering the superb services you get for your taxes in those countries, and the moderate cost of housing (everywhere except Stockholm), also not bad places to live, if you live on passive income.



Housing cost is a great advantage of life in Finland, which has a superb system of city planning and urban land management (different and better than Sweden's). It's pretty hard to spend a million euros on a house or apartment in Helsinki -- almost does not exist. Contrast to, for example, Moscow, where not that long ago you couldn't buy a one room studio for under a million USD in the Central Administrative Okrug, population greater than the entire city of Helsinki. Helsinki does not have the beautiful buildings of Tallinn or Riga, and no medieval town, but has fantastic natural beauty -- the sea is everywhere -- Helsinki is built on a bunch of islands.



Tallinn is even cheaper than Helsinki; the top prices are about €4000/m2 (half of Helsinki). You can buy a gorgeous apartment in the Old Town for a few hundred thousand euros. Taxis are so cheap that you would never dream of owning a car -- taxi from the center to the airport is less than €5. Ride around all day for €20. And Helsinki is two hours away by ferry. Fantastic place to live.


Either city is only a 30 minute flight (or a reasonable drive by car, or a short ferry trip) away from St. Petersburg, for a culture break, with the most intense and best cultural life in Europe excluding only possibly Moscow, and certainly the best museums in the world.


There are a whole lot worse places in the world to live.

[bergius]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Helsinki does not have the beautiful buildings of Tallinn or Riga, and no medieval town, but has fantastic natural beauty -- the sea is everywhere -- Helsinki is built on a bunch of islands.

There’s not much left, but medieval Helsinki was more north inland of where the city is now.