Tolerance

[SV Windrush II]

One of the reasons why I love sailing is so that I can get away from all the politics and agendas of the day and just enjoy the beauty of the sea and build friendships with others that love the sea also.

I am sure I am just as opinionated as anyone else, but when I meet someone that does not necessarily agree with my point of view, Out of respect of the other person i do not push my opinion on them or tell them they are wrong.

If a person asks me what I think, I would be happy to let them know what I believe to be right, but only in the thought that it is my personal belief, of which I am hoping that the other person will respect, but I do not expect them to agree with me.

To me, relationships with people is more important than whether they agree with me or not. An I can also choose who I want to build relationships with.

It appears to me that the people that are screaming prejudism or "equal rights" the most are sometimes the ones that are the most intolerant.

I do believe we need to give each other enough space to have our own beliefs or opinions and be open to others opinions so we can learn from each other

[Mike OReilly]

I'm a member of the SSCA. Their forum almost never descends into rancorous debate over silly things the way this place does at times. I suspect part of the reason is that users over there are closer to being real people. The community is smaller. People are known to each other as more than just anonymous avatars, so the discourse tends to be more civil most of the time (not always...).

This phenomena of anonymous forums fostering greater levels of bad behaviours is well known. It's been studied. It's why some places have moved away from allowing anonymous users.

I'm certainly not suggesting anonymity is the sole cause of online intolerance. But it clearly (based on actual evidence) does help. The other thing that helps is a strong code of conduct that is fairly enforced -- something I think CF does do fairly well. The best forums are those where the users police themselves, and each other when someone gets out of line.


Why go fast, when you can go slow

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I'm certainly not suggesting anonymity is the sole cause of online intolerance. But it clearly (based on actual evidence) does help.

I agree. I have run forums before and absolutely require full names on each post. Stops most crap.

I might not agree with all Mike O'Riley says but at least I know its a real person saying it.

(He, of course, agrees with everything I say! )

Name, photo, boat name = credence to post imho. (Wether they know anything or not!)

Now a general reply to the thread:

In general, i write without fear or favour, i dont give a rats bum about tolerance or intolerance, i would prefer to call it as I see it. Anything else is a damn lie.

Also, when I write a reply, i am usually not talking only to the specific earlier poster but saying things I believe to an audience generally. Googleable later.

Mind you, my opinions are only those that I have now, and written quickly in an immediate medium, without much forethought, designed to impart knowledge, provoke thoughts, and attempted to be done so , usually, in a palatable or entertaining way.

If thats not the way I come across then find out how to ignore a users posts.



Mark
PS "There seems to be some belief by many here that if you don't sail you're not a cruiser". Too bloody right! And if someone doesnt sail or own a boat please don't tell me how to circumnavigate! (C.L.O.D's excepted!!!)

[Canibul]

Except for one simple fact. You have no idea whether the name, Photo, boat name etc has anything to do with reality.

IF I start posting under the name Rasputin McGillicudy, on board the S/V Phuquehoff, with a suitable photo, you're saying suddenly whatever I post has more credibility than if I posted as my usual Gringo? ( Oops. Here it's Canibul. Gringo was already taken, although he never posts or visits.)

The difference between what gets posted on forums and what gets said face to face is pretty easy.

You can't get punched in the nose in a forum, so you can get away with whatever you want to post. These bozos who thrive on this stuff can keep pushing the limits over and over without any control to speak of. We all know how easy it is to get back on a forum after getting "banned for life". Doesn't mean anything.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

You can define "cruiser" however you want. The topic here is tolerance, and a specific use of labeling in discussions.

If you have to bring up your definition of cruiser in a discussion, it's likely being used to say that the other person's point isn't valid. If their point really isn't valid, then the better way to make your point wouldn't be to label them, but to point out the flaw in their reasoning.

My definition of cruiser would be all those people who sail (or motor) from place to place in boats, whether they do it full-time, one season a year, on the weekends, or one week a year. I suppose you could debate about those who live in "their home waters" on a boat full-time, and rarely move their boat, but they have a lot in common with the people who sailed in from some distant port. After all, most people sail to a place and stay a while.

If you exclude all those people who aren't uber-cruisers, this forum becomes pretty small, and loses quite a bit of diversity of opinion. We all live in the same world, and that world intersects in this forum, as well as at the docks at the local marina.

I'm glad someone brought up this subject, as who is a cruiser and who is not and to Tolerate the openions of those arm chair sailors who have a life as close to cruising to be the book on their nightstand.
Myself, I think I fall into the catagory of a cruiser, as I live fulltime and travel from place to place on my boat, sometimes weeks at a time without making port, so I think I qualify,
Anyway, short story and you almost gota laugh,
Ran across a guy awhile ago, waited until full retirement to buy a boat and set off cruising. did his research on the internet from fourms to find the right boat. so he bought an old pig of a boat that has a good number of years on it and figured, with the help of his "internet fourm buddies" he would have it sailing and cruising the islands of the pacific soon.
Well that didnt happen, and when I talked with him, he was completely discouraged, and asked me weather he made the right decision about going cruising at his age.
I told him, and I might be a little bias on this, but told him it wasnt his age but his choice of boat to start with.
The end result is he's selling the pig of a boat, if he can and thinking of buying a motorhome..
In the conversation I had with him, he went into detail of all the numbers and ratios of what the guys on the forum said to compare. and over the period of time we talked, it seemed that the people on forum picked out the boat for him.
So to be Tolerant of those not owning a boat and giving information from their armchair about what type of boat you should buy or how to rig it, Not a chance.
If you havent had the experance as a cruiser, covering the information asked about, Keep your openions to yourself.. and Only take part in information you have first hand knowledge about.
so Tolerance, I have "NONE" for the cruiser Wanabe.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Canibul

Except for one simple fact. You have no idea whether the name, Photo, boat name etc has anything to do with reality.

IF I start posting under the name Rasputin McGillicudy, on board the S/V Phuquehoff, with a suitable photo, you're saying suddenly whatever I post has more credibility than if I posted as my usual Gringo? .

For the most part, people can be singled out over a period of time as to what they say is true or not..
I call "lier" to one well know person on the forum awhile back when we (the forum) had tracked their movements down the coast to the place where they droped anchor. but it seems this person logged thousands of miles over the short peoiod of sailing to where to boat is anchored. and in those travels, incountered winds up and above 70 mph and how they sailed calmly throu it all..
When on the forum for a few years, its quite easy to pick out the mis-claimers, especially after they start talking..

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

I'm glad someone brought up this subject, as who is a cruiser and who is not and to Tolerate the openions of those arm chair sailors who have a life as close to cruising to be the book on their nightstand.

I said tolerate their opinions, not buy a boat based on the recommendations of anonymous posters on the internet.

Your anecdote has nothing to do with tolerance. It's about a guy who didn't have sufficient experience sailing to choose a boat before he bought one. The advice he got may well have been from people who lived on the boat he bought. The boat might be fine. It was likely more boat than he had the experience to deal with, or didn't meet his needs.

Most internet forums have a subset of very experienced members. Most of them are very knowledgeable and helpful. Others have a need to put down other people to make themselves feel better about themselves, or out of some desire to justify their life choices. It's a choice that forum members make for themselves.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I think that you are being a bit defensive here. Folks who don't sail at all can't be cruising sailors... I think that is a reasonable assertation!


Jim

But they can be cruisers and this site does not proclaim itself to be for sailors only. In fact it says the opposite. It even has forums for Power Boats. And I was assured by the moderators that it was also for power boaters who cruise. There does seem to be a significant percentage of the participants who think it is only for sailors however.

I cruised 19,701 nautical miles last year on power boats. I was on a sail boat 5 times for day trips only. So i'm most definitely a cruiser. I doubt anyone here covered the territory I did. And I don't consider myself a sailor, just someone who occasionally likes to go out on a sail boat.

[lifeofreilly57]

In this day and age of information technology it's easy to relay opinions that you would not ordinarily put in such strong language, in most cases anyway. When your face to face with another person of differing opinion you can read their body language, hear the inflection in their voice, in other words you can tell the difference between a joke and an insult, your also within arms reach of that person. That usually makes it harder to be obnoxious, if only out of fear of bodily harm. That usually makes exchanges more entertaining and civil, unless there's alcohol involved, in which case all bets are off.
Unfortunately most trolls on any forum site don't use the simple rules of engagement when writing their opinions. Write it out, THEN DON'T HIT THE SEND BUTTON, stop, read through it again and think, would I say that to their face? I would venture to say most people edit their opinions slightly to put through a forceful opinion in a more civil tone. I know as a youth, before the filter between my brain and mouth was better developed a friend of mine told me I had a talent for getting people to hit me first, I quickly figured out it wasn't a strength I wanted to develop further.
This forum for the most part is pretty good that way, people have a sense of humor for the most part and thick skin, probably from all the beatings they take working on their own boats, if they didn't have a sense of humor they'd all be rolled up in the fetal position mumbling.
I don't even venture into the comments section in most online news or information sources any more, too much crap and not enough information. Lets hope it continues to be just the opposite here.

[Dsanduril]

The very basis of society is intolerance, it is the core building block of civilization, so is it any surprise to see it in individuals or on this forum? The first thing a group of people does as it gathers into a society/civilization is to form rules/laws. And what are rules/laws except a list of behaviors that the group won't tolerate? Every law on the books is a societal codification of intolerance. For Christian/western culture it starts with the 10 Commandments and proceeds from there.

There are nearly universal intolerances - most societies do not tolerate murder (the killing of one member of a society by another). And nearly univeral tolerances - war (the killing of members of another society by members of yours over some intolerance between the two), which is almost identical to murder but is frequently celebrated and memorialized.

Even CF, as a society, has intolerances. The forum rules require that we "be nice" and that the society as a whole will not tolerate posters who aren't.

Then there are the changing mores and tolerances/intolerances that are almost fad like. The society into which I was born fully tolerated drinking of alcoholic beverages by expectant mothers, but was largely intolerant of homosexuality (at least open homosexuality). Fast forward (not very far) to today in the US and society is largely tolerant of open homosexuality (and intolerant of anyone who speaks against it) and openly hostile and intolerant of any woman who has even a single alcoholic drink during pregnancy (despite the lack of any scientific evidence that shows a problem with fetal developement in women who drink lightly).

So, is it any surprise that opinions are polarized and there is intolerance over things like child-rearing and boat abandonment? One is a key function of society at large, and the other is a core element (the love of boating) of our CF society.

I'm a great proponent of tolerance and come down heavily in the camp of live and let live, but I have my own intolerances. You know those cruisers who come into an anchorage, anchor right on top of you, and run their generator 12 hours a day? Not very tolerant. Or how about those cruisers who dump their raw sewage in the anchorage? Those are behaviours that affect me, should I be tolerant of all behaviours that degrade my life (as I percieve it)? So if I have those intolerances, how can I not tolerate/accept that some people believe that the cost and necessity of a rescue affects them, or that another child, "poorly raised", will be unleashed on society, affecting them? And who then express that opinion in the forum and further express the opinion (observed as intolerance) that no one should disagree with them? I may not agree with them, but tolerance means that I have to accept that they have as much right to their opinions (and posting them here) as I do to mine. If you can't tolerate it you can always skip over the posts or hit the ignore button.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by BandB

But they can be cruisers and this site does not proclaim itself to be for sailors only. In fact it says the opposite. It even has forums for Power Boats. And I was assured by the moderators that it was also for power boaters who cruise. There does seem to be a significant percentage of the participants who think it is only for sailors however.

I cruised 19,701 nautical miles last year on power boats. I was on a sail boat 5 times for day trips only. So i'm most definitely a cruiser. I doubt anyone here covered the territory I did. And I don't consider myself a sailor, just someone who occasionally likes to go out on a sail boat.

I said "I" but should have said "We". My wife and both did. We both also have our Captains licenses and our sea time will allow an upgrade in July and another around December.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Your anecdote has nothing to do with tolerance. .

It has everything to do with Tolerance, Tolerance to put up with crap from those giving information basied on something they have NO knoledge about.
Those that step forward and give information as they were ocean travelers when the nearest they have ever been to a large body of water is their bath tub.
Tolerance for bad or mis information.. I'l still be the first to say they are full of
S"""T

By the way, you guys will have to keep this conversation going on without me as we,re headed for a new adventure and and another anchorage and maybe. internet service..
hope to be back on CF in a couple weeks..................Happy typing as we're out CRUISING, as thats what we are, CRUISERS..

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Those that step forward and give information as they were ocean travelers when the nearest they have ever been to a large body of water is their bath tub.

In general it is difficult to determine level of experience on CF. In fact there may be some instances of experience inflation similar to lying on a resume.

I don't think I have seen such an extreme example on CF however. Randyonr3, you have a for instance?


Furthermore, a diesel mechanic with only limited day sailing experience could give top shelf advice wrt to working diesels. There are many dimensions to cruising and just miles under the keel may not always be a valid metric for assessing information on CF.

A good manager educates himself on a problem, collects information from a number of independent sources, integrates the data, and arrives at an informed solution. CF is just one source for filling a pool with information.

[robert sailor]

As Randy has said, its fairly easy to pick out those people that talk a great story but have little if any real sailing experience. I do my best not to respond to those folks as your chance of learning anything new is about zip but those guys/gals that at least appear to know what they are talking about are always fun to debate with.

We tend to live in tribes and are generally intolerant of people from other tribes, this has only been going on for thousands of years so its doubtful that we are going to make much headway.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

In general it is difficult to determine level of experience on CF.

I have seen cases where a person's opinion was discredited and they were called names such as arm chair sailor, sitting behind their desk, or wanna be cruisers when in fact the accusations were far from true but a person found it easier to make such personal attacks than to discuss the subject being talked about.

I was a businessman, my wife was a public school teacher. We make no apologies for either as we're very proud of things we've done in our lives. Neither of those however makes us more or less capable of being a cruiser. Cruisers come from all walks of life. They learn many different ways. They cruise on many different kinds of boats.