Tolerance

[BandB]

Why does there seem to be so little tolerance today, in the world in general, and on forums such as this?

Recent threads have highlighted that. We have intolerance in pointing out the intolerance of others. Sailors saying non-sailors aren't tolerant of their lifestyle. But then sailors lacking tolerance toward those who choose different lifestyles.

Specifically we have whether one would take an infant on a long navigation. Please don't use this thread to argue that. My issue is that there are those totally intolerant of one who would choose to do so and meanwhile those intolerant of those who say they wouldn't do so. It's no different than the questions of raising children on a boat cruising. This forum might be heavy toward yes on that subject because it's a cruising forum, but intolerance isn't appropriate in either direction. I have an issue with those who say that's a wrong way to raise kids, but no issue if they say they wouldn't choose to do it and voice their reasons. Similarly, I have no issue with those who would raise kids on boats but I have a problem when they're intolerant of others who point out reasons they wouldn't choose to.

Sailboaters and power boaters intolerant of each other. Sometimes it crosses from light hearted joking to serious ugliness. Those who cruise frugally versus those who spend freely.

The majority of the people in the world don't boat, period. I think they're missing out on a lot, but I don't think their preference not to makes them bad people. I have two great friends who will never go out on a boat of any sort.

I've seen what could have been reasonable discussions compromised by people making personal attacks toward those with differing views. Many discussions go way off track so someone can interject a narrow minded agenda.

We all live our lives differently, have different beliefs on all subjects. That's a big part of what humans are. But when we think it makes us better than others, that's a problem. Yes, if we're honest and caring those are good qualities. But choosing lifestyles doesn't make one better than another.

There are things in this world to be intolerant about. Violence, harm to others, ugliness, war, hatred. But one's choice of how to live their life isn't one of those. We lose sight of what's truly important.

Specifically, I'll address my thoughts on one subject and again this isn't to discuss that or any subject other than my belief on tolerance. I personally would never attempt a circumnavigation or extended cruise away from land with an infant. But, I equally believe that it's fine for those who weigh the issues and do decide to. I wouldn't do the things Eric and Charlotte and others do, but I would never attack them for their choices and especially in this time I only had one thought and that was, thank God their child is ok. For that discussion to evolve into a critique of lifestyles just disappoints me. And to critique anyone else's choices even in other times isn't to me what we should be doing. To share our choices is fine. But who are we to say others should or must make the same choices we would. It's just wrong, narrow minded, and intolerant.

I'm a power boater, but I admire and respect sailors. I'm just too lazy to engage in their sport. I spend 2/3 of my time on a boat, but am not a live aboard full time. Still I respect those who do and those who don't. I respect those who live more frugally than I do, am amazed sometimes. But I don't put down those who live like billionaires either. That doesn't make them bad people. Actually a couple of the people I admire most in this world are insanely wealthy but they've also pledged half of their network to charity. I have zero mechanical inclination so I very much respect those who have such. I can't paint but respect artists. On the other hand there are things I'm good at and I expect to be respected myself.

I find it interesting to come to a forum such as this one and listen to those who live life differently than I do. I have friends who do so as well. I honestly find myself hesitant to even share views here because mine might be different from the majority. As cruisers or boaters we don't want outsiders demeaning us so we shouldn't demean them. I'm not a pilot, but I'm not going to tell one that he's crazy to fly around the world in a plane. I hope he's not going to tell me I'm crazy because I only get on a plane when I have to in order to reach a destination. I don't like them.

Maybe I've said too much already and everyone feel free to attack. These were just observations my wife and I both felt we needed to make. Hopefully they're accepted as constructive. If not, then maybe we're spending too much time in the wrong place for us. We're just upset when we see the turns some threads are taking. And rest assured it's not just one. So perhaps we're intolerant. Actually we are, intolerant of intolerance. We'll admit that.

[atoll]

ever tried herding cats.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by atoll

ever tried herding cats.

No, I have not. Have you? Did you enjoy it?

I am impressed by your latest project though, even though I can't personally even imagine doing such a project.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by BandB

No, I have not. Have you? Did you enjoy it?

I am impressed by your latest project though, even though I can't personally even imagine doing such a project.

thanks for the interest in the project!

perhaps i can put a little bit of light on erics actions,and something that he does not lack.

Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes.

Barbara Killinger offers a traditional definition:

Integrity is a personal choice, an uncompromising and predictably consistent commitment to honour moral, ethical, spiritual and artistic values and principles.[1]
In ethics, integrity is regarded[by whom?] as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Integrity can stand in opposition to hypocrisy,[2] in that judging with the standards of integrity involves regarding internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding within themselves apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs.

The word "integrity" stems from the Latin adjective integer (whole, complete).[3] In this context, integrity is the inner sense of "wholeness" deriving from qualities such as honesty and consistency of character. As such, one may judge that others "have integrity" to the extent that they act according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold.

A value system's abstraction depth and range of applicable interaction may also function as significant factors in identifying integrity due to their congruence or lack of congruence with observation. A value system may evolve over time[4] while retaining integrity if those who espouse the values account for and resolve inconsistencies.[5]

[BandB]

Atoll:

I had read your comments on his integrity. And your definition. It's a shame that somehow has even been necessary to put into the conversation. Questioning one's integrity is a very serious matter. You can say I'm ugly, stupid, crazy, dumb, too tall, too lazy, anything, but don't question my integrity. To me the story and report is simple until they speak further. It's a family at sea, a sick child, a rescue, relief knowing the child is better and getting the needed treatment. For those who know him personally then it becomes a very personal matter.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by BandB

Why does there seem to be so little tolerance today, in the world in general, and on forums such as this?
...

I don't believe there is less tolerance today vs yesterday. The difference is that today, in the Information Age, we get to hear from so many intolerant people. Or we hear things to which we do not agree.

We make a post, and depending on the website, it will easily be read by hundreds or thousands of people all over the world. 25 years ago this was not possible. The only people who could "hear" me had to be in my physical presence. Being in someone's presence usually provides a measure of restraint and allows one to see the other persons physical reactions which are missing on the Internet. The Internet allows people to just spout off, which they would almost certainly not do to someones face, and in many cases people would just say nothing at all. The Internet leads people to provide an opinion without a filter.

Today, I "know" far more people than I could have pre Information Age. I have been on one website for over 15 years which is forever in Internet Time. The people on that site have a variety of backgrounds and are spread all over the world, and communicating with them, as easily as it is, was just was not possible a few short years ago.

This communication is, for the most part, a Good Thing but it can be bad because you really see the a....s in some people. In the past, we would only see a few people in our lives that were just idjuts. Many we might have considered idjuts but they kept their mouth closed so we would not know! With the Internet, we get to meet more people and the Internet encourages people to OPEN their mouth, which provides proof of the Idjutness. Or to use the new CF phrase, prove they are Dilloways.

The Information Age allows us to see how many ignorant and rude people are in the world. They have always been here but we just were ignorant of them.

Later,
Dan

[atoll]

Originally Posted by BandB

Atoll:

I had read your comments on his integrity. And your definition. It's a shame that somehow has even been necessary to put into the conversation. Questioning one's integrity is a very serious matter. You can say I'm ugly, stupid, crazy, dumb, too tall, too lazy, anything, but don't question my integrity. To me the story and report is simple until they speak further. It's a family at sea, a sick child, a rescue, relief knowing the child is better and getting the needed treatment. For those who know him personally then it becomes a very personal matter.

i think you have just hit the nail on the head,as to why there is intolerance!

in no way was i questioning your integrity!,in fact i enjoy many of your reasoned posts!

your imagined slight by me,of your character, that i in no way inferred,or meant to inferr,just goes to show how easy it is to bring to the surface in otherwise intelligent people intolerance!,by mis-communication!

[BandB]

Dan:

So basically the intolerant are louder. So it's the expression of intolerance that is increased. Instead of thinking "only an idiot would have a red car" now one expresses it online by saying, "Joe is an idiot for buying a red car."

I love the internet and all it brings to my life. But I do hate that people have taken it as a place to express any thoughts including their hatred. It seems we should try to treat people the same as we would in person. Now I do think the limits of written comments and interpretation could occasionally lead to problems and misunderstandings.

But then I see people come online and blast their employer and their boss. Somehow they don't seem to grasp that all can get back and cost them their job.

[Reefmagnet]

As a member of the silent majority, it seems to me that many confuse a difference of opinion to that of their own as "intolerance".

[Captain Bill]

The problem with us bone heads is that we don't know when we're being bone heads, so we come to internet forums to find out. No matter what position you take on a subject, there's someone on the internet that will point out that you're a bone head for it.

[Coops]

One of my favourites is the statement that something is a fact. It's funny how "facts" somehow agree magically with your opinion and any evidence to the contrary opinion is fabricated nonsense made up by people without credentials.

Coops.

[jeepbluetj]

I personally think part of the generic intolerance is something that could be called "communication comprehension" (not all on the readers part)

If I'm having having a discussion at a bar and tell the gal next to me that that rocna she just stuck on the bow of her boat is absolutely crap.. She'll figgure out that I'm being slightly facetious - it'll be part of the non-verbal conversation.

But type the same thing on a forum and it can (and is) interpreted as saying your baby is ugly. Forums aren't the same as sitting around in bars. And in bars at some point the trolls get beat into a pulp, so IRL is self limiting there

The specific incident in question? Most of the world thinks anybody on a boat is a rich bastard and celebrates any problems. Remember, half of the planet is below average intelligence. (see, that's a math joke that may come off as elitist. It's not, it's a math joke -- and not even all that good of one because it's incorrect math )

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by BandB

Why does there seem to be so little tolerance today, in the world in general, and on forums such as this?

BandB, thank You a lot for this post.

Let me add - the problem is not about the tolerance only.
You know, the tolerance is in itself quite a strange thing - it is always somehow limited. I think about myself as a tolerant person. I strictly believe anybody should be free to make own choices and live in accordance with own feelings, believings and so on. On the other hand we live in society, in our communities (of all kinds). To live in the community one need to observe some borders, and the freedom of choice need to be limited somehow and somewhat for common sake. We, almost all, are "intolerant" to murderers, child abusers and other persons crossing the borders drawn by society. There are some behaviours to which some of us are tolerant and some are not. For example I'm intolerant to drug dealers, but I know this particular intolerance is not shared by so mane as intolerance to thieves. I know very well that I'm using extreme examples, but it is a bit with tongue in cheek, just to illustrate that for some people the envelope of tolerance is different than for others. If so - tolerance is not an universal thing.
So seeing the behaviour which I can see as intolerant is not very strange for me. I understand to a degree that other people have such a strong feeelings about some problems, or such a deep faith in some principles, that they want they views to be universally accepted as a valid borders for the community. More nad more people around want to create more and more of red tape around all of us, around our lifestyles, our activities. I think they just feel unsafe in the society and want some kind of Big Brother to look after all of us and protect somehow... I feel sorry for such a people, I can find some empathy for their nightmares. So, I guess, I have a little tolerance to intolerance.
But... there are other thing at the same time. There is hate all over. Jealousy. Most of the self righteous people are full of hate and jealousy, I believe. It is just a fact of life, we are living with this and in this. I do not know what a remedy may be...
And there is most strange thing for me. Just complete disappearing of what French called savoir vivre. Knowledge how to tell things, how to be simply polite, when just to shut up and keep the thoughts even if someone is probably right. It make a life so much worse for all.
Even here, on CF, we have a members just looking for the possibility to hurt others, to make them looking silly, to demean them, to exalted themselves... I can not understand this, really...

Sorry, if this post is not very readable - this time I had really the language problems, my English is just not rich enough to reflect my feelings.

Thank You both again, BandB, for Your post

[Travelnik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0

Or:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

[Lojanica]

Human nature. As old as time. Lucretius said "It is pleasant to watch from the land the great struggle of someone else in a sea rendered great by turbulent winds."

The Germans have a word "Schadenfreude."

No need for pages of discussion when one word will suffice.