Selling my boat

[gsuescum]

Originally Posted by SqPeg

I have located a buyer for my 2004 Catalina 320. He had it surveyed. That was OK for a boat of that vintage but he claims that the standing rigging should be replaced every 10 years and he wants it done. Thoughts?

Saw the listing, you’re asking for real money.

Assume he’s bargaining and approach it as if it’s a bargaining tactic.

Tell him the boat is sold “as is” but you’re willing to give him a discount of say 1/3 of the cost of re-rigging. If that’s a couple of few thousand $$ just get the deal done and be done with the hassle.

I’ve balked at some offers before that were “insulting“ (they were) and later regretted the hassle factor of going through the whole sale process again, the holding costs, and ending up at almost the same price.

Just do the deal if you can.

[Phyrcooler]

Personally, I see this “Rule of thumb” rigging thing and “Insurance issue” as BS, propagated on forums like this. Very similar to the oft quoted advice that your annual costs will be a percentage of a boats value. Someone posts it here because they “read it somewhere” or they “know someone who…”. And then someone else shares their new-found knowledge. Years ago, on one of the forums, the question was asked for boat owners to share their actual insurance requirement for a rigging replacement at 10 years. After days of posts and thousands of views, nobody could produce a copy of an actual insurance requirement, although someone out of England claimed that theirs had. Most often was found a rigging inspection was required at purchase, or at a certain point by their insurance company.

So, is that the definitive answer? No. I’m just one sailor with an opinion just like the rest of you. But my experience is colored by decades of fighting governmental waste caused by companies pushing replacement schedules citing “Rule of thumb” and contrived planned obsolescence whilst predicting doom and gloom and the ever present scare tactic of “LIABILITY

That’s JMHO

[Ratty1978]

You don't say which "he" is saying what. Was it the surveyor or the buyer who made the rigging replacement claim? Not that it's incorrect, either way, but it would make a price negotiation ploy more transparent if it was only the buyer who said it. Is it a good idea? Yes. Is it mandatory? Personally, I'd say it depends on conditions. When I bought my 10 meter racing boat it had original standing rigging that was maybe 18 years old, raced on the Great Lakes, and I replaced it mainly because there were improved chainplates available. Over the next 10 years, the backstay was replaced to go to dyneema and the forestay because contact with another boat required it. Salt water and heavy weather? 10 years probably a good idea. Get some estimates from a rigger and negotiate price?

Originally Posted by SqPeg

I have located a buyer for my 2004 Catalina 320. He had it surveyed. That was OK for a boat of that vintage but he claims that the standing rigging should be replaced every 10 years and he wants it done. Thoughts?

[jlubinsky]

Here's a good comprehensive guide found using Bard
When should a sailboat rigging be replaced?

The decision of when to replace your sailboat's rigging can be a complex one, with no single definitive answer. It depends on a variety of factors, including:

Age of the rigging: This is a starting point, but manufacturers' recommendations can vary, typically ranging from 10-15 years for wire rope standing rigging. However, age alone isn't enough to decide.

Material of the rigging: Different materials (wire rope, Dyneema, etc.) have different lifespans and degradation patterns. Consult the manufacturer's specifications for your specific material.

Usage and conditions: If your boat sails frequently in harsh conditions (saltwater, strong winds, UV exposure), the rigging will likely need to be replaced sooner than if used infrequently in mild conditions.

Inspection results: Regular inspections by a qualified rigger are crucial. They can identify signs of wear and tear, corrosion, and damage that might not be obvious to the untrained eye. These findings can significantly impact the replacement decision.

Insurance requirements: Some insurance companies may have specific requirements for rigging age and condition, affecting your coverage if replacement isn't timely.

Signs of wear and tear: Look for things like rust, broken wires, chafing, kinks, and loss of tension. Even seemingly minor issues can compromise the rigging's integrity and warrant replacement.

Overall condition of the boat: If your boat is older or has structural issues, replacing the rigging might not be the most pressing concern. prioritize other repairs that affect safety and seaworthiness.

Budgetary considerations: Rigging replacement can be a significant expense. Planning and budgeting appropriately are essential.

Here are some resources to help you make an informed decision:

Manufacturer's recommendations: Consult the specifications for your specific rigging material and brand.
Rigger inspection: A qualified rigger can provide a thorough assessment of your rigging's condition and make recommendations based on their findings.
Sailing organizations: Consult with sailing organizations like the American Sailing Association (ASA) or the United States Sailing Association (US Sailing) for resources and guidance.

Ultimately, the decision of when to replace your sailboat's rigging is a personal one based on a careful assessment of all relevant factors. It's crucial to prioritize safety and avoid sailing with compromised rigging. Consulting with a qualified rigger and ensuring regular inspections are key to making informed decisions about your boat's vital components.

[Goodxcharly]

A Catalina 320 should be easy to sell so I would say No. Just wishful thinking on the buyers part.

I have a recently purchased C 36 2003 with original rigging. Insurance didn’t mention replacing standing rigging.

FWIW

[Symphony]

Rigging suffers by type of use, upkeep, materials as well as age.

Before you dismiss your buyer’s counter offer out of hand, look at the deal from his view and you might discover where or why there’s a difference of price opinion. Also read the listing with fresh eyes to learn the buyer viewpoint. Maybe the buyer is missing a salient value of your boat.

I drove long distances twice after reading listing, pictures, and assurances from the broker as to equipment and condition. Arriving at the boat found that many of the pictures were from years earlier. The listing had been cut and pasted from previous listing including typos.
Equipment was onboard but had never been connected, or hadn’t worked in a decade. Rig and varnish described as NEW was found to be “new in 2016.” - 8 seasons ago!
Still the boat was a design I sought, seller friendly and motivated, and i had a lot of time invested, so i tried to salvage the deal. Counter offers, especially after a survey, can be an attempt to find a common ground for exchanging the vessel.

If you don’t work this deal, will another buyer see the same issues? If you don’t sell, it means you are buying the boat.

Old advice from RE brokers: the first buyer is the best buyer. Free advice FWIW.

[CyKlop]

It’s his choice whether to buy the boat or not. It’s your choice whether to sell it as is. Doesn’t matter when it “should” be done.

The question really is whether you are willing to potentially lose the sale.

[Mike OReilly]

The issue here is not whether the rig needs to be replaced. It's whether the seller disclosed the information prior to the sale offer being made, or whether it only came to light following the survey.

It's not the seller's problem if a buyer's insurance company wants new rigging. As long as the seller made full disclosure, the buyer knew what they were getting when they made the initial offer. If the survey simply confirmed what was already known, then attempting to renegotiate using this information is disingenuous at best, and plain sleazy at worst.

Of course, the opposite is also true. IF the state and age of the rigging was somehow hidden, then it would be entirely appropriate for the buyer to try and renegotiate.

[sailingharry]

First of all, VERY few boat owners actually know the age of their rigging. Unless you have receipts from the prior owner (we do!), you can only guess. See the other thread on that.

Second, as mentioned up-thread, a used boat is priced as "used." It's not brand new. The engine is coming due for replacement (be it 1K hours, or 10K hours), if its running well, it will keep going (my parents just sold their 1979 boat with 10K on the Perkins, I hear it is in the Bahamas now). Sails are probably due (I priced new sails into almost every boat I looked at). Rigging is good for.... who knows? I've raced on 30 year old boats that I believe had original rigging. My last boat was 40 years old when I sold it, and I am pretty sure the rigging was original.

Using the survey as a bargaining tool is bad form. I have bought 2 boats, sold one, and walked away from one after survey (deck rot). Other than the "fail," neither the buys nor the sell had any variation in price. Unless the survey finds a big surprise -- a good survey only says "yep, this boat is 40 years old."

Some say a good survey is important. I disagree. A bad survey is critical for getting your boat insured. My surveyor had no idea how old my rig was (and at that time I hadn't found the invoice). Fortunately, he didn't make some noise that would scare the insurer. My first boat, the surveyor completely missed the badly rotted chain plate knee (I already found it), so I could replace it on my schedule, not the insurance companies schedule. That same surveyor (highly respected in the Annapolis area) confused my wire main halyard with a shroud and inserted several "Underwriting Required" notes as a result, that took considerable discussion with the insurance company to get cleared. He also flagged that my factory installed CNG locker did not meet the current ABYC requirements, that also took a lot of effort to undo with the insurance company (meeting current requirements would basically require me to move the CNG bottle (a SCUBA bottle) to the stern rail). Other than the deck rot, surveyors have caused me more grief than benefit, and a sloppy surveyor is a knowledgeable buyer's best friend.


Oh, and for those that ask "did you disclose the age of the rigging?," I'd ask did you disclose the age of the anchor chain, the halyards, the saloon upholstery, the chart plotter, the batteries, etc, etc, etc. Of course, NO, the boat is used and everything is ageing. Unless the newness was announced, assume it is all old.

[mindsofman]

Just surveyed a 2008 Cat. 36 ,, Swages showed signs
Of fine cracks,,,rust leaking out ...sat down with buyer
And seller and discussed costs etc..
Suggested instead of replacing entire rig ,not necessary ,,
Go with StaLok or Norse terminals ,,cheaper alternative
and insurance accepts them..
Both buyer and seller very happy with the turn out.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Symphony

Old advice from RE brokers: the first buyer is the best buyer. Free advice FWIW.

But remember, contrary to the mantra pushed in Realtor promotions, the broker is most assuredly NOT pushing for the best deal for the seller. He is pushing for the fastest possible sale at ANY price.


If you put a house up for $1M, he gets $60K in commission, even if it takes a year to sell.


If he pushes you to take $100K less one week after listing, he gets $54K in commission, or $6K less. Actually, even less, 'cause he only gets 1/4 of the commission (his boss takes 1/4, and the buyer's firm gets 1/2).


If you had the chance to make $54K in a week, or $60K in a year, which would you take?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by jlubinsky

Here's a good comprehensive guide found using Bard

AI writes well written commentary, sounding authoritative. But rarely if ever cites credible sources. In fact, a TV news piece reported that Bard provided fake "references!"


No where in that response did Bard provide a credible basis for action.


Of note, I recently used Bard in an attempt to answer a question about entry requirements to a particular country, prompted by a question on this forum. The provided answer authoritatively stated COVID restrictions counter to the countries official web site.

[wackerb]

FYI, I bought a trimaran with a 5yr old roller furler around the forestay. The thimble which was hidden from inspection under the forestay drum broke resulting in dismasting att sea on a volcanic leeward shore. Could have destroyed the boat, but saved it. The insurance company response (I think it was Progressive, but am not sure) was that they don't cover consequences of rigging failure.

So insurance requires 10 yr and/or qualified inspection and then don't cover it anyway!!

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wackerb

FYI, I bought a trimaran with a 5yr old roller furler around the forestay. The thimble which was hidden from inspection under the forestay drum broke resulting in dismasting att sea on a volcanic leeward shore. Could have destroyed the boat, but saved it. The insurance company response (I think it was Progressive, but am not sure) was that they don't cover consequences of rigging failure.

So insurance requires 10 yr and/or qualified inspection and then don't cover it anyway!!

I had Markel at one point. They don't cover consequential, clearly stated in the policy text. BoatUS has (or had?) a strong marketing campaign that they DO cover consequential. In their marketing (and perhaps in real life?), the following is true:
* A shroud fails, the rig goes over. BoatUS denies the shroud, replaces the mast.
* A through hull fails, boat sinks. BoatUS denies the through hull, pays for total loss.
Other vendors (Markel) don't. I asked Markel to describe ANY dismasting or vessel sinking that wasn't consequential damage to something that failed. They said "we cover dismastings all the time." Not sure how. Perhaps running into a bridge?
I insure through BoatUS. In part because anecdotally, they actually pay claims, in part because a dismasting and a sinking are the two things that worry me the most. And now in the LFP era, they appear to have no restrictions on LFP.
The last time I spoke with Markel, they appeared to have softened some, but now require a professional rigging inspection every other year (!!!). That's at least a quarter the cost of my policy! (A friend just paid nearly $1K to get his done for insurance for a trip he is making). And I somehow doubt a rigging inspection on a 2 year old rig will state "good to go, no issues."

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Plenty of other boats to look at and chose from.

Tell the buyer he is free to look at other boats.....simple...take it or leave it...

Re-rigging is an expensive and time consuming project, can be done in the water or mast needs to be pulled.

Where does this stop. New electronics, new bottom paint, new sails,,,???

That's like buying a used car and expecting the seller to put new tires on it for you.
Ha ha, that will be the day...

Ahhhh yes, this is where a GOOD broker comes in. I had a very similar situation when I sold my Tartan 37. The buyer wanted a rig inspection so we went to a rigger and surprise! He said it needed a new rig!! It was right on the edge of ten yrs old. And in very good shape. As was the boat. This was definitely not a “beater”. The broker explained to the buyer that this was pretty typical of rig surveys for a buyer. Or should I say a “rigged” inspection. The buyer was cool (thanks to the broker) and the boat sold. It was the end of the season and I didn’t want the expense of another yr. So I sold it for a favorable price to begin with. The broker did his job and fairly handled the deal. The price didn’t come down. And the broker explained that there was no need to immediacy re rig the boat. Again, you gotta love those ins companies………or not!