Need to abandon crew

[Glasshopper]

I got 'cured' from the enthusiasm to take-on unknown crew the last time I did it, so have since been giving this some thought.
My latest ruminations were to advertise for travel companions or 'ride share' in Gumtree parlance and have the people appear on any paperwork as passengers. This also gets rid of any expectation the people may have of being paid and, and employer's workers compensation insurance. Further, in some SE Asian countries (as I recall) the word 'crew' has implications for payment of bond to the Govt authorities when the person joins or leaves the boat.
-Rob.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There is a problem with the Capt. keeping all the passports (although he may be the only one who can clear the crew in). The problem happens when the Capt. refuses to surrender the passport at the end of the agreed upon journey. In the instance I'm remembering, he kept the woman a prisoner on board. Eventually, she swam ashore and went to the gendarmerie , and they were able to help her.

Whether or not the captain had the passports there really wouldn't have been a different outcome. If they were stuck on the boat the passports didn't matter, and if they could get ashore the port captain could get the passports back. The value of the captain having the passports is that the crew doesn't just disappear (and possibly take property with them).

Greg

[captstu]

I went to customs with the crew and a ticket for them to return to the US. They were "paroled" into th country and departed easily. This was not an abandonment, but an emergency return home for a family emergency, but I think the same rules prevail.

[goboatingnow]

I think people are comparing commercial crews with leisure “crews “. Most countries have special arrangements to allow commercial crew to temporarily get dock and land access , port visas , transit visas etc

The ship and the captain has a duty of care as their employer etc.

None of this applies to leisure “crews “. On a leisure boat each passport holder must be able to capable of legally entering the country when they arrive in port.

The crew list has largely nothing to do with it.

The crew therefore all effectively individually visit the country as normal “ tourists”

Hence once the crew is legally check in , the captain has no further responsibility legally. The person is a tourist and is the country legally under whatever conditions apply to tourists.

The only complication arises if a crew member has to access a country where they do not have tourist visa. In this case should the yacht “ abandon “ a crew member they could be charged with refugee trafficking and other offences. In this case various offences can be committed if either the crew is abandoned or leaves the yacht. ( various countries will have offences if you arrive on a leisure yacht with “ crew” that can’t clear in as tourists )

Once a leisure yacht clears in its occupants as tourists no further obligation rests on the captain or the yacht. The obligation to abide by the terms of the tourist rules applies only to the person applicable.

Hence once the crew clears in normally. The captain is under no legal obligation to take them back onboard.

Commercial certified crew have that position recognised on law by most countries and as a result can access resources etc not applicable to leisure crew.

There is actually no definition of leisure crew they have no separate legal status unlike commercial crew. They are really just “occupants”, akin to people in an RV. This includes the “ captain “

[captstu]

Goboating now's statement does not comport with my experience. Brazil does not permit entry without a previously obtained Visa from out of the country. We arrived with no such visa and after some minor paperwork were declined a "Ship and Crew" and "paroled" for 5 days to visit the country - as any tourist might.

I don't think there is anything in international law or custom that exempts ships below a certain size from parole requirements.

The Captain retains responsibility for removal of a crew - at least in some countries - and must affirm they will leave with the ship or show proof of another acceptable exit method such as a plane ticket out to the country of their home passport.

I had two crew from South Africa on board when entering the US. I took their passports and plane tickets to customs and had no problem.

I suspect different countries have varying rules - but the same "proof of exit" was required on my two trips to Cuba.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by captstu

Goboating now's statement does not comport with my experience. Brazil does not permit entry without a previously obtained Visa from out of the country. We arrived with no such visa and after some minor paperwork were declined a "Ship and Crew" and "paroled" for 5 days to visit the country - as any tourist might.

I don't think there is anything in international law or custom that exempts ships below a certain size from parole requirements.

The Captain retains responsibility for removal of a crew - at least in some countries - and must affirm they will leave with the ship or show proof of another acceptable exit method such as a plane ticket out to the country of their home passport.

I had two crew from South Africa on board when entering the US. I took their passports and plane tickets to customs and had no problem.

I suspect different countries have varying rules - but the same "proof of exit" was required on my two trips to Cuba.

I made the point , that in general “parole” is only available to registered commercial seamen . The legislation generally refers to “ commercial” ( I avoided the term parole as people may not be aware of it )

Hence you are not supposed to land any occupant of a lesiure yacht that does not have the requisite authority to enter the country.

As I said if you abandon that person you are committing offences.

But where a occupant of a lesiure yacht clears into a country they do so under normal tourist rules. At that point the yacht has no further responsibility. If they clear in under any other form of admission the yacht “ may” be under obligations to also remove them from that country.

Note I have personally seen situations where crew needed access to a country to fly home. Immigration “ bent “ the rules and applied parole etc simply to let them fly out.

Note tourists do not access countries under parole rules unless distress is involved

I do except there are certain jurisdictions that have variances on this

Zarpe documentation etc is not really associated with this , this is more permission for the yacht to leave legally.

[StoneCrab]

This is an interesting discussion.

Can I infer from the points being made that there are internationally agreed to "rules" which must be followed or is this entirely on a country by country basis?

If the crew member clears in as a tourist, it would seem that the captain and ship could leave without the "tourist" on board, since as a leisure craft, the crew aren't bound by the same rules as, say, a merchant marine crew member.

I think this is the point where things get blurred. Countries ask for crew lists, but on a small sailboat, in a non-commercial cruising environment, maybe crew lists aren't really appropriate. I like the framing that the crew are coming in as any other tourist, they just happened to arrive by boat. Doesn't that solve many of the issues? ... and put it on a individual level rather than in the framework of captain and crew....

[Stewie12]

I doubt that most countries would accept a person on a yacht as a tourist, as it is not a commercial vessel. For example a person on a US visa waiver can only enter US waters on a commercially registered vessel.

[Deep Blue Water]

Aside from the precept of setting the captain adrift, the HMS Bounty in 1789 had the right idea...

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The crew therefore all effectively individually visit the country as normal “ tourists”

Hence once the crew is legally check in , the captain has no further responsibility legally. The person is a tourist and is the country legally under whatever conditions apply to tourists.

In Caribbean island nations this is simply wrong (and in other places I have visited as well). The system I described to track arrivals and departures through matching crew lists is very, very real for "leisure" boats. One of the problems that they are trying to stop is the arrival of "backpackers" that settle in and work illegally, but don't have ongoing tickets. These governments are fed up with paying to deport them, so they make sure that everyone leaves with the boat unless arrangements are made otherwise. And having paid for an airline ticket as a necessary condition (by the port captain) to get a crew off of my crew list I know personally how real this is. People arriving by boat are absolutely NOT handled the same as tourists arriving with return airfare.

Greg

[Celestialsailor]

First, the phrase, "poorly chosen crewmember" is not really true. I am assuming you thought they were ok until they weren't. You can only go off what you know and what they tell you. Other than asking for references from other boats they have been on, you take your chances.
I had a "poorly chosen crew" when I was cruising the Sea of Cortez. I had met them a few years prior when they hauled out in a yard I was at. They seemed nice but the first thing I noticed is he was not very hands on but I am, so no big deal. I had put an ad on CF for crew. Originally it was just him, then asked if his musician wife could come along. I said sure. The trip was suppose to be 4-5 days.

When we met on the boat, they informed me they weren't into showering that much. I nicely told them I didn't need to smell body odor unless I had to. Well from there it went down hill. They started planning the trip for their enjoyment, visiting anchorages they had been to before. I felt it was a compromise and didn't think it that big of a deal. So I negotiated with them. That was a big mistake as they felt they could get what ever they wanted. They wanted a 12 day vacation. Then the wife began playing the Ukulele for 8+ hours a day, every freakin day...same 20 song, over and over again. It got to a point to where I was wearing ear-buds listening to my music. Mild hints from me did not detour any of the behavior. The sounder started giving us problems and warranted using a lead weigh and leadline. He didn't want to do that since he knew these anchorages "like the back of his hand". It all came to a head when he was coming into an anchorage so fast that the leadline was at a 45 degree angle. I ended up first asking, then finally shouting at him to slow down. That prompted him calling me a control freak. Sorry dude but it's my boats. I was so pissed with them. The next day we pulled into La Paz and off they went leaving my boat a total mess. They were big time drinkers too. His biggest beef with me was I would not pre-program the GPS with waypoints. Instead I use a chart with the GPS coordinator and steer when it's time to. It got to a point of not being able to trust them at the helm. He liked cutting corners into an anchorage.
My point is, I did not bring them in as crew. They checked into Mexico on their own. So no problem saying adios. Now, they charter their boat out where they are from and go to Mexico bumming rides from others. God help the boat owners.

[goboatingnow]

I can certainly confirm from my experience over 30 years that in many North African countries and European , some Caribbean , Scandinavian and the US , so called crew on leisure boats are merely tourists. The US for example simply doesn’t allow the visa waiver scheme to apply to arrivals by private yacht but nevertheless you enter with a B1/B2 as a tourist and you are stamped in according

The yacht has no obligation to remove you from that country that obligation lies with the “crew member “

This is same for non European citizens using a visa to access European ports. Again this is the crews personal obligation once cleared in

This was also my experience in several Caribbean countries , Morocco , Tunisia and Egypt.

This is specifically where the crew clears in under a tourist visa ( or wavier ) this is not the case where some form of parole is applied. But my only experience where this was entertained was where distress was involved ( yacht or personal ) yacht crews ARE not the same as commercial crews even though some immigrations look the other way to solve a problem ( in Tunisia we have a port visa , I forget the actual name , applied to one crew member )

I can’t speak for the pacific or oz etc.

Hence in my opinion if the crew clear in as tourists ( ie they avail of visa wavier or specific tourist visa schemes ) the yacht has no obligation to remove them from the country. No more then the airline flying you in has to be the airline flying you out.

This is not the case where certain forms of parole are applied , in this case you ( yacht captain ) are obliged to remove the “ crew “ member from the country this can clearly mean flying them out. But you as captain are responsible to ensure they don’t break the rules.

[PappysSailing]

An acquaintance hired me as crew for a sail to U.S. from Martinique on boat he had recently bought there a month or so before. Plan was to clear U.S. Customs at Fajardo. Big problem with Customs in Martinique (which I had luckily addressed in advance) was my flying into/ entering their country without outbound plane ticket w depart date less than something like 60 days. Oddly enough, seemed like my explanation of sailing out on private vessel, not flying, was the first time anyone there had ever heard of such a thing. They finally agreed that they would let me enter with the condition that I brought a copy of owner's vessel's Cert of Documentation and a letter from same verifying my claim along with his local and U.S. contact info. It all worked out, sort of.
But, in any case, I agree with Greg above. Guess sometimes you don't have much of a choice, but having strangers aboard your boat for extended periods, in sometimes difficult situations, has never been my idea of a good time.
Find a sailing friend, get a great auto pilot / wind vane with the crew $$s you don't spend ... and lose the headache.
Two of us just sailed the Gulf last month - Biloxi to Galveston- on a 42 ft Sabre w an awesome auto pilot ... hydraulic rams below /remote control.
Hardly ever even touched the wheel. Crew , Shmew. Cheers, Pappy

[George_SD]

Depends on the country. Some require you to be responsible for everyone leaving the country. Others probably don't care as much as long as they can obtain a visa on the spot.

[goboatingnow]

My experience has been the bigger countries tend to be less concerned

Barbados required if you ( or the captain ) wanted you to be severed from yacht you had to obtain permission from immigration. All the crews belongings had to be removed etc.

There was no issue with this but it was a process that had to be completed.