Is Singlehanding >24 Hrs. Morally Wrong?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Most singlehanders would never sleep if they were within say 25-30 miles of the coast unless heaved too

Not too many small canoes out that far.

Radar and AIS can give warning of any other obstacles

Lol, you obviously haven't cruised in Asia where the tiniest of fishing boat with no electronics are seen far offshore.
Your faith in small boat radar amazes me

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Lol, you obviously haven't cruised in Asia where the tiniest of fishing boat with no electronics are seen far offshore.
Your faith in small boat radar amazes me

Yeah, that's the problem with Global Internet. I'm talking sailing within 1000 - 1500 miles of my location. If I ever were to sail further I may have to adjust as I go

If I were to sleep while sailing, I'd mainly be worried about ships offshore. I might even heave too to get a good sleep. I'm thinking AIS and/or radar could alert me to a ship within a few miles

The last picture in this (SHTP) guide makes me think he enjoys his long naps during daylight hours

http://sfbaysss.net/resource/doc/Sin...irdEdition.pdf

[barnakiel]

People who jump to call others immoral are mostly presidents, popes and all kinds of preachers. And their followers. The crowd.


To live a free and meaningful life, one must learn to disregard information that comes from poisoned sources.


Cheers,

barnakiel

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Lol, you obviously haven't cruised in Asia where the tiniest of fishing boat with no electronics are seen far offshore.
Your faith in small boat radar amazes me

Not yet but met singlehanders who have - they didn't sleep much in certain areas

Plus eyeball watchkeeping 3am on a dark night two weeks into a passage ain't very likely to spot much either. Radar works very well very often, as does AIS once well off the shelf.
Pushes the probabilities far towards the good side, if there's doubt then deal with it, keep that timer short if at all.

[OldManMirage]

Having been in the Navy, I can tell you it doesn't matter how many sets of eyes you have keeping watch, things can still get missed.

If you think the average sailboat with say 4 people standing watch is somehow going to spot everything that might come along you are fooling yourself.

I'll take a radar and AIS over a person any day. No one can keep their eyes constantly scanning the whole horizon for hours at a time.


The recent collisions of large ships with full crews is a perfect example.


There's nothing moral or immoral about it. It's simply a risk you take if you decide to go sailing. Or boating. Or driving. Or any number of activities with similar possibilities.

[ahun]

I just came across this thread (as I was mostly out at sea singlehanding in the last while) it is very interesting but couldn't read all the way trough.
Moral comes mostly from your cultural background and you education, how you were brought up, what is accepted in your immediate or wider social circle.

Based on single handing is not moral, all

Vende Globe
Figaro
GGR
Minitransat
Chester Challenge
Longue whatever
Etc.

singlehanding races should be universally and ultimately condemned, unsupported and eventually banned. As they are not, it seems that singlehanding today all around the world and unanimously by those who count deemed as moral.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by OldManMirage

I'll take a radar and AIS over a person any day. No one can keep their eyes constantly scanning the whole horizon for hours at a time.


The recent collisions of large ships with full crews is a perfect example.

Large ships with several radars, full ARPA, and class A AIS - and that's what you trust?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Large ships with several radars, full ARPA, and class A AIS - and that's what you trust?

He simply said he was in the navy.

Most folks in the navy these days know nothing about steering the ship, navigation, docking, etc.

They are below decks with other duties

But it's pretty obvious to most that if you are offshore 50 miles or more radar and AIS can allow you to nap for a few hours

I even cat nap sailing across a 20 mile bay ………………...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by ahun

I just came across this thread (as I was mostly out at sea singlehanding in the last while) it is very interesting but couldn't read all the way trough.
Moral comes mostly from your cultural background and you education, how you were brought up, what is accepted in your immediate or wider social circle.

Based on single handing is not moral, all

Vende Globe
Figaro
GGR
Minitransat
Chester Challenge
Longue whatever
Etc.

singlehanding races should be universally and ultimately condemned, unsupported and eventually banned. As they are not, it seems that singlehanding today all around the world and unanimously by those who count deemed as moral.

Singlehanded racers are awesome!

They should get more support.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by ahun

I just came across this thread (as I was mostly out at sea singlehanding in the last while) it is very interesting but couldn't read all the way trough.
Moral comes mostly from your cultural background and you education, how you were brought up, what is accepted in your immediate or wider social circle.

Based on single handing is not moral, all

Vende Globe
Figaro
GGR
Minitransat
Chester Challenge
Longue whatever
Etc.

singlehanding races should be universally and ultimately condemned, unsupported and eventually banned. As they are not, it seems that singlehanding today all around the world and unanimously by those who count deemed as moral.

I agree with your premise.that "morality" has nothing to do with going solo....

However, your logic is flawed.

This discussion is all about the honest acknowledgement and acceptance of added Risk!

Those races attract viewers precisely because it is a riskier sport when singlehanded.

It is a marathon of endurarance and sleep deprivation... throw in the different technologies and strategies... and you have a winner!

But part of that audience is specifically because of the higher casulty risk due to going solo!

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Solo sailers, I actually admire them and wish them all to continue with their passion

.... just wish they wouldn't rationalize that they are as safe as a fully manned yacht with competent crew!

That is just BS! [emoji4]

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by jkleins

You have made some fairly good arguments until here but I would put this one to rest. No singlehander has ever put themselves up as the no longer needing to follow the stand on give way rules of the road. The only argument they make is that the watch system they have with electronics allows them to be notified of the need to determine whether they are the burdened vessel as well as would be achieved with them awake. No singlehander expects another vessel to avoid them. They expect that they will be awakened in time to make any decision about collision avoidance in plenty of time.
If you want to argue that current technology cannot do this or other aspects of that decision go ahead but saying singlehanded seems are somehow expecting special treatment just isn’t true.

Jim

What you say is only true IF the electronic means you plan to depend on works all the time and isn’t degraded by local weather conditions. I almost ran over about a 35’ wooden lobsterboat in thick fog and 3’ whitecaps but was saved because I was peering very intently at my radar (and at one time I was a F-4 RIO) and noticed a couple consecutive sweeps seemed to show what looked just like another speck of a clutter return but moving down my screen every few sweeps about 1/8 mile off my bow so I turned and sure enough i soon smelled it and then caught a glimpse of it. AIS would have been useless because he wasn’t transmitting and since it wasn’t even discernible until so close and it’s return was so small it looked like just another close-in clutter spot, a radar alarm likely would have either missed it or been giving false alarms in those conditions. Even IF the radar alarm worked properly, you would have been awakened from the fog of sleep with mere seconds to analyze the collision geometry and make the right decision about what to do. That’s a poor substitute for an alert crew member watching, listening, smelling, AND using all available aids such as AIS and radar, which is what the Colregs require of every vessel. I realize there aren’t a lot of 35’ wooden fishing boats with tiny radar returns far out to sea but there IS the possibility that the electronic means we are supposed to use to back up our visual and audible watchkeeping can malfunction or just not work well in certain weather conditions. There’s just no substitute for a human watchkeeper.

If sleeping while depending on your electronics to wake you in time is an adequate way to stand watch, why don’t all seagoing commercial vessels adopt this method so they can cut back on crew and payroll? Everyone aboard could sleep whenever they wanted to and the location where the alarm rings could could be electronically programmed to rotate from cabin to cabin to correspond to the “watch” schedule.

I don’t think that singlehanders think of themselves as demanding special treatment while they’re asleep, but they really are anytime their electronic alarms don’t work perfectly and nobody, including the singlehander, knows how often that is. While sleeping they are completely unaware that a near collision may be developing so naturally their vessel proceeds on its course whether the geometry dictates they are burdened or stand on. Other vessels that the crossing geometry dictates must stand on are being mislead into getting their vessels into closer proximity to a potential collision than they ever normally would if the singlehanded vessel had an alert helmsman who made the proper course correction when it first became apparent that a collision was possible, as any other vessel with someone on watch would be expected to do.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

He simply said he was in the navy.

Most folks in the navy these days know nothing about steering the ship, navigation, docking, etc.

They are below decks with other duties

But it's pretty obvious to most that if you are offshore 50 miles or more radar and AIS can allow you to nap for a few hours

I even cat nap sailing across a 20 mile bay ………………...

He might have been a cook in the navy, but that's not the point. His point that he trusts radar and AIS contrasts with his observation that large ships collide - they don't just have full crews, they also have radars and ais too.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by OldManMirage

Having been in the Navy, I can tell you it doesn't matter how many sets of eyes you have keeping watch, things can still get missed.



If you think the average sailboat with say 4 people standing watch is somehow going to spot everything that might come along you are fooling yourself.



I'll take a radar and AIS over a person any day. No one can keep their eyes constantly scanning the whole horizon for hours at a time.





The recent collisions of large ships with full crews is a perfect example.





There's nothing moral or immoral about it. It's simply a risk you take if you decide to go sailing. Or boating. Or driving. Or any number of activities with similar possibilities.

It’s not a question of deciding to take AIS and radar over human eyes or vice versa. Rule 5 requires that BOTH be used on all vessels at all times as necessary to be aware of your surroundings.

I’m not “fooling myself” that a sailboat with 4 watchstanders will spot everything that comes along, but they will spot more than a sailboat with one watchstander who is currently asleep.

I think there IS something immoral about deciding to subject others to additional risk for your own convenience without even advising them you are doing that. When we go boating we expect the risk is minimal because everyone will be following the rules that are designed to keep conflicts to a minimum and automatically resolve those conflicts that do occur. When driving we know there is risk but expect that the risk will be minimized by everyone taking care to stay on their own side of the yellow line in the middle of the road. But when some boaters or drivers decide to not follow the rules that are designed to keep us safe just because they want to, they increase the risk to themselves but also to any other boater/driver who happens to be nearby, and I’d call that wrong or inconsiderate or immoral or whatever you prefer, but I’m pretty sure it’s one of those.

[Lodesman]

Not really speaking directly to the OP's query, but SOLAS/UNCLOS/ et al. require all mariners to maintain a watch for other vessels in distress, and to render assistance if able. You might argue that the solo-sailor provides a greater chance of assistance, by being there, so what's the downside? Now imagine some poor bugger drifting in his liferaft for the past 2 months, sees a vessel and fires off his last flare - and is ultimately doomed because his potential rescuer is snoozing. Immoral?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by ahun

I just came across this thread (as I was mostly out at sea singlehanding in the last while) it is very interesting but couldn't read all the way trough.
Moral comes mostly from your cultural background and you education, how you were brought up, what is accepted in your immediate or wider social circle.

Based on single handing is not moral, all

Vende Globe
Figaro
GGR
Minitransat
Chester Challenge
Longue whatever
Etc.

singlehanding races should be universally and ultimately condemned, unsupported and eventually banned. As they are not, it seems that singlehanding today all around the world and unanimously by those who count deemed as moral.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I agree with your premise.that "morality" has nothing to do with going solo....

However, your logic is flawed.

This discussion is all about the honest acknowledgement and acceptance of added Risk!

Those races attract viewers precisely because it is a riskier sport when singlehanded.

It is a marathon of endurarance and sleep deprivation... throw in the different technologies and strategies... and you have a winner!

But part of that audience is specifically because of the higher casulty risk due to going solo!

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Solo sailers, I actually admire them and wish them all to continue with their passion

.... just wish they wouldn't rationalize that they are as safe as a fully manned yacht with competent crew!

That is just BS! [emoji4]

I would add that the logic is flawed in another way. Just because people do something, even if it is a lot of people that are doing it AND other people approve of what is done, does not make that action moral.

I won't even begin to list the cliched examples of how this logic is wrong.

NOTE: Please read carefully and you will see that I did not comment on whether or not singlehanding is moral or not, only that the logic used to justify the morality was invalid.