Advice for starting a delivery boat business

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Some questions
1. What are your average rates?
2. Do your rates chance based on length of travel?
3. In 2019 how may deliveries did you make and many days did you work?
4. I am not sure I understand why it is hard to find work as a mate, can you explain?
The Captains I have talked with all have a list of mates they use for delivers and they pay about $150 per day.

1. I have a rate card so my average is right off the card. $500/day offshore and straight through, $375/day for local work (wake up in my bed, sleep in my bed), $125/hr (mostly for installs and service). All expenses.
2. No change in rates for distance. The rate is the rate. I am conservative in planning so I'm often a day or so early as long as nothing goes wrong. Customer's like coming in under budget.
3. 2019 isn't over yet and I had some health issues so numbers were off. I think seven offshore deliveries of signficance with one more scheduled; maybe two dozen local moves. I'm not sure about days underway. Maybe a little under a hundred.
4. I don't generally have a mate. I have a crew. Sometimes one person is more capable then the others and gets a leadership role; sometimes that is planned ahead and sometimes it shakes out.

My crew list has more than 600 people on it. At least half those are lookie-loos who want to think they'll go offshore. Having them on the list doesn't cost me anything so no matter. I have access to another crew list with a couple of thousand people on it using the same business model I do. I sometimes end up with an opportunity that goes out on social media.

Crew get to and from the boat on their own nickel and all on-board costs are covered - mostly provisioning and C&I fees and of course fuel and marina fees. Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist about taking advantage of people I get good, qualified people who WANT to sail with me. We'll talk about any subject they want to learn about. We've had salon PowerPoint briefings many times on anything from weather to route planning to provisioning. I'm a lot cheaper for crew than an offshore sailing school. Crew have access to everything related to trip prep--the sort of things I listed above--and lots of planning and operational spreadsheets and documents. I've had people sail with me before signing on to sail their own boat in the Salty Dawg or Caribbean 1500. I'm their virtual safety net. I do have five crew that get first call on a paid mate gig. Those are usually short notice emergency boat moves and don't happen often. Sometimes they are straight through runs inshore (like the ICW) where I need to know that they can run on depth sounder and radar. All are working delivery skippers in their own right. On those trips we spend a lot of time talking about logistics. These are guys and gals who have figured out that the sailing part is often the easiest bit. Lots of seminar discussions with scenario-driven material. Pre-packs make that all a bit harder. Why would I pay someone when good people are asking to sail with me?

That goes to crew recruitment from my list of important tasks. How do you filter applications down to telephone interviews? Do you know what the really important questions are? Do you have the personnel management skills to drill down to the information you need to pick the best (you hope) three crew for a trip? What is different between owner-aboard and a bare boat?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by katoema

Your net annual income is what I get per month averaged over a year.

That sounds about right for an experienced, professional delivery skipper.

Reading through this thread really brings home the difference between US East Coast and West Coast. In the late 1990's and early 2000's, I was a full-time delivery skipper based out of San Francisco (I now live in Florida). I only occasionally delivered sailboats for reasons already mentioned, but one that hasn't been mentioned is risk - there are a lot more ways to get hurt on a sailboat than a well-found trawler yacht (my bread and butter). I generally delivered new or nearly new yachts, most deliveries were in the 1000 nms range (often to exit California for tax purposes), though some were getting the boat from California to Florida - essentially running a short duration international company with a few temporary employees and a multi-million dollar asset. There is quite a bit of logistics and planning involved, especially entering/exiting foreign countries with crew (for whom the captain is 100% responsible). There is considerable financial planning for a long delivery, and of course trust from the owner that must be built and respected. My last 2-years of delivering were 2003 and 2004, and I averaged over 200 deliver days each year. These were strong boats that could keep moving and rarely had mechanical failures, but if there was a weather or mechanical delay, I almost always had another job to do rather than charge a lay day.

As far as mechanical knowledge, I guess it depends on what you're delivering and where you are transiting. Several of the boats I delivered were new and were specified to have the break-in oil removed at 100 hours, so I've actually done a couple oil changes at sea. My last delivery was from SoCal to Ft Lauderdale on a 9-1/2 kt boat which was a 500 engine hour run. I did an engine service in Panama before headed through and north up the Caribbean Sea. There are countless other repairs - who knows how many fuel filters, stuffing box adjustments, hydraulic leaks, A/Cs that need air purged, electronic systems that were never dialed-in completely, outboard motors that don't start, windlass switches that are jammed. To the OP - if you're not comfortable with the myriad of small stuff that pops up, you need crew who is. You will only piss-off an owner if you need to incur a lay day for a BS repair.

I know just one professional delivery skipper these days, and he works out of Florida and gets most of his work through a new power yacht builder. He's been at it for 15+ years and is away at least 250-days per year, though I'm pretty sure his day-rate is fairly modest compared to Pacific Coast captains. He runs boats all over the Atlantic and Caribbean. Because so much of his work includes Florida and the boats he delivers cruise at 18-25 kts, he rarely spends multi-days at sea. On the Pacific, ports are spread-out, and many are not all-weather ports, so deliveries are much different. And getting experience to become a delivery skipper is more difficult - few recreational boaters venture far into the Pacific, and those that do (fisherman) do not generally transit the coastline. That said, the skinny waters of Florida are more difficult for me than the big water of the Pacific. Seems there's a million places to tap bottom in places like Florida, and that can cost a ton of money and ruin a reputation. I don't envy delivery captains along the Atlantic, but do observe there are is a lot more competition for the work.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

1. I have a rate card so my average is right off the card. $500/day offshore and straight through, $375/day for local work (wake up in my bed, sleep in my bed), $125/hr (mostly for installs and service). All expenses.
2. No change in rates for distance. The rate is the rate. I am conservative in planning so I'm often a day or so early as long as nothing goes wrong. Customer's like coming in under budget.
3. 2019 isn't over yet and I had some health issues so numbers were off. I think seven offshore deliveries of signficance with one more scheduled; maybe two dozen local moves. I'm not sure about days underway. Maybe a little under a hundred.
4. I don't generally have a mate. I have a crew. Sometimes one person is more capable then the others and gets a leadership role; sometimes that is planned ahead and sometimes it shakes out.

Thank you for your post.
So you spent about 100 Days delivering boat or about 40% of a 250 day work year and earned about $50,000.

I have noticed that most Delivery Captains have other boating services for when they are not doing a delivery.

Do you have other services that you offer?

PS I think having unpaid crew is ok.
I assume you are knowledge enough to know who will would make a good crew member and who is just looking for a free vacation.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I assume you are knowledge enough to know who will would make a good crew member and who is just looking for a free vacation.

BTW - the WORST crew I ever had was a South African guy who had a gazillion sea miles sailing a very slow, full-keeled ketch that he built himself 25+ years before. He would not stay awake during his watch - too many lonely ocean crossings I guess. Nice guy, awful crew. I had a lot of success with fairly green trawler enthusiasts who were far enough into their career that they could take the time off without work conflict.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by fish53

I apologize for my outburst if I had known how to delete it I would have. I started life with less than nothing and had to work hard for every scrap I could get so I guess I trained myself to get my hackles up in a hurry to survive. I know next to zero about you and you're undoubtedly a fine person as your daughter's success indicates and you didn't deserve my misplaced comment, consider it retracted.

This is clear evidence of a good man.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I have noticed that most Delivery Captains have other boating services for when they are not doing a delivery.

Do you have other services that you offer?

Yes. I do yacht management and work on communications and other electronics (recreational and small commercial) systems. Other odds and ends. Articles and seminars.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

I though about adding my own boat. And doing some instruction on my boat.

Well my boat is over 30 years old. I think it’s quite nice but. My pal who runs the school says no. it’s to old.

I don’t get this boat age thing?
When I made the decision to get a smaller boat vs something over 50’ most of the newer 30ish foot boats didn’t feel as solid and a few of them were in much worse shape despite being a later model year, wouldn’t condition, build quality and design be a much larger factor than something like model year?

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

A final update for 2019
My net income was $6,000.
20 days working and 10 days managing the business.

So 2018 was a loss of $1,500
2019 was a profit of $6,000

This is right on target with my business plan and goals.
Remember I am still working full time and just doing this part time for a few years until I retire with a goal of $4,000 to $8,000.
Once I retire my goal is have a net profit of $20,000 to $30,000

Just a little update on my business.
In 2020 my net income was about $8,000.
Spend 27 days working and 20 days managing the business at night.
So a total of 47 days or about $170 per day.
Right on target with my business plan.

Since I am still working full time I have about maxed out my vacation time and if I do not change something $8,000 is about my limit of my income.

So now for phase II doing something on the weekends that will increase my income while I am still working full time.

I have looked at a few ideas and have decided to offer 2 hour sailing adventures on the weekends.

I have
1. Obtained a 32 ft slip for 2021.
2. Developed a marketing plan.
3. Got an estimate for insurance.
4. Investigated the required business licenses.
5. Investigated online booking systems like https://fareharbor.com and https://www.xola.com.

Just waiting for the right sailboat to come on the market.
Something like a Catalina 30 or Endeavour 32.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

So now for phase II doing something on the weekends that will increase my income while I am still working full time.

One thing that has worked for me is to focus on fewer customers with more work. For me that means brokers. Two kinds of tasks: moving boats locally for service and driving for sea trials. The first bit means sorting out ground transportation.

For sea trials I have drinks and snacks packages I do at cost. Local vendors like the promotion opportunity. I can do cheese and charcuterie (Tastings Market in Annapolis) or small sandwiches (Leeward Market in Annapolis). Brokers are finding what I told them is true - feeding and watering people reduces breakdowns in deals.

Relationship building at sea trials has led to more work. I drove for trials and then separately for closing (on board, adjacent state for tax) and ended up being engaged by the seller for his new boat.

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I have
1. Obtained a 32 ft slip for 2021.
2. Developed a marketing plan.
3. Got an estimate for insurance.
4. Investigated the required business licenses.
5. Investigated online booking systems like https://fareharbor.com and https://www.xola.com.

Thoughts:

2. Advertising has not been productive for me. All my work comes through brokers and word of mouth. Time building relationships is cheaper and more productive - marketing vice advertising. Pre-COVID, speaking engagements were productive.

5. I can see booking working for commodities like cruises. For deliveries and associated work I just don't see it. Apps and applications over-complicate things. I use Word (proposals, pre-delivery info packets for crew, meal plans, provisioning lists), Excel (fuel management, expense tracking, temperature for CV-19), and PowerPoint more than anything else. OpenCPN in my go-kit. Lots of file management. Calendar on my phone for appointments and tickle list. Notepad for to-do list. Lots and lots of pictures of things sorted by customer and project (SLCE Aquabase watermaker will kill me yet).

In final prep for Annapolis to St Thomas on FP Saba 50 leaving Sunday early hours. Departure close to home is convenient but I end up working harder for longer which ends up okay. Electronics and comms installation and update, licensing for the customer, moving the boat for service I couldn't do, yacht management. Of course provisioning and spares. Crew recruitment, management, and retention. Sailing is the easy part.

[Sherpa17]

I'm what's known as a dirty neck sailor. I worked in boatyard trades and for builders that did a lot of new boat commissioning and fit out and I eventually delivered customer's boats and set up a lot of boatshows. I am a sailboat racer and connected with an active program that became my primary employer for 15 years. I've been doing deliveries and such for 45+ years.

My highest grossing year was around 75k plus expenses. I probably worked 2500 hours to earn it and was away from 'home' in New England for 6 months. I had 3 clients that year. I got to winter on Tybee Island while refitting a big cutter. Memorable. An average year might be 50k+.

I also worked occasionally as an outside mate delivering larger motor yachts to make ends meet.

Nowadays I sail 3 or 4 days a week in season with the owner of a ketch I have maintained since new and I work at a chandlery sometimes. I'm comfortable, not rich. I would do it all over again.

[Captain Graham]

Thanks guys for your advice.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Just a little update on my business.
In 2020 my net income was about $8,000.
Spend 27 days working and 20 days managing the business at night.
So a total of 47 days or about $170 per day.
Right on target with my business plan.

Since I am still working full time I have about maxed out my vacation time and if I do not change something $8,000 is about my limit of my income.

So now for phase II doing something on the weekends that will increase my income while I am still working full time.

I have looked at a few ideas and have decided to offer 2 hour sailing adventures on the weekends.

I have
1. Obtained a 32 ft slip for 2021.
2. Developed a marketing plan.
3. Got an estimate for insurance.
4. Investigated the required business licenses.
5. Investigated online booking systems like https://fareharbor.com and https://www.xola.com.

Just waiting for the right sailboat to come on the market.
Something like a Catalina 30 or Endeavour 32.

A little update on the 2 hour sailboat cruising part of my business (PhaseII)

My target date for having everything setup and ready to go is June 2021.

I am estimating the startup costs will be about $15,000.
1. New LLC $1,000 one time cost.
2. Slip $2,200 per year.
3. Insurance $1,000 per year.
4. Boat Survey $1,000 one time cost.
5. Boat Repairs $1,000.
6. Target boat price under $8,000 one time cost.
7. Other $1,000

The ongoing annual cost are estimated to be about $5,000
1. Slip $2,200 per year
2. Insurance $1,000 per year.
3. Winter storage $1,000 per year.
4. Annual maintenance/repairs $1,000 per year.

The business will need to generate at least $15,000 per year for a 2 year payback.

I will start doing this just on weekends and I am assuming 16 weekends per the summer season here in Ohio.
The sailboat will have a capacity of 6 people per trip.
I will be doing 7 trips per weekend
1 Trip on Friday night.
3 Trips on Saturdays.
3 Trips on Sundays.
Tickets will be $50 per person

The maximum income is ($50*6*7*16) $33,500.
So my target of $15,000 is about 50%.

[Time Theory]

Just my two cents. I would think that a 30 foot boat in decent shape with a reliable motor would cost more than $8,000.00. It seems around here in South Carolina that it is a sellers market. Maybe prices are better in other parts of the Country. Best of luck on your search and your business.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Time Theory

Just my two cents. I would think that a 30 foot boat in decent shape with a reliable motor would cost more than $8,000.00. It seems around here in South Carolina that it is a sellers market. Maybe prices are better in other parts of the Country. Best of luck on your search and your business.

Yes it is a challenge.

[Auspicious]

Six people plus you is pretty full for a 30' boat as a business venture. What about drinks and snacks? I don't think you can do seven trips a weekend without help. Turn-around is key and you'll need someone focused on cleaning and prep and provisioning while you deal with customers.

I agree that $8k is not going to get you a boat that people will pay to sail. Also $1k/year for maintenance of an $8k boat isn't enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUfZ3tH1gQ