Paying for/Liability During Sea Trial???

[Aquaranger]

As the buyer are we expected to pay for a captain during a sea trial?

We’ve looked at a lot of boats and this has never been the case. I completely understand why we are paying for the survey and haul of the boat but in this case the broker has said if we didn’t want to take the boat out we’d have to hire a captain.

Now I could take the boat out, but it’s not my boat yet. It seems like this should be the sellers responsibility. We have an accepted offer pending the survey and sea trial. Liability seems like an issue here. If we take the boat out or hire a captain to do it we’d have the liability.

The owner isn’t around so isn’t this the brokers responsibility?

Thanks.

[Fore and Aft]

As a marine surveyor I would have said it is the sellers responsibility. I have been on plenty of sea trials where a trusted friend of the seller is the captain. A few brokers I know will also take the boat out for the sea trial.
I am never keen on sea trials without the owner just because I have been on boats that needed fuel, oil, coolant etc purchased before we even leave the dock and who pays for that? Then there is the issue of what if something breaks or the equipment cannot be stowed back properly. (I had that happen with a furler)
Hell one survey on a cat had a missing rudder.
I swear on some sea trials the owner never shows because the boat is just a polished turd.
Cheers

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Aquaranger

As the buyer are we expected to pay for a captain during a sea trial?

We’ve looked at a lot of boats and this has never been the case. I completely understand why we are paying for the survey and haul of the boat but in this case the broker has said if we didn’t want to take the boat out we’d have to hire a captain.

Now I could take the boat out, but it’s not my boat yet. It seems like this should be the sellers responsibility. We have an accepted offer pending the survey and sea trial. Liability seems like an issue here. If we take the boat out or hire a captain to do it we’d have the liability.

The owner isn’t around so isn’t this the brokers responsibility?

Thanks.

My view, the seller has appointed the broker to act for him so if the seller can't or won't demonstrate his boats abilities then the broker should. If the broker won't either then offer to employ a suitably qualified and insured person to perform the task and make it quite clear that all costs for this service will be charged to the owner at your rates, sale or no sale, agreed in writing prior. If the broker still refuses then I would smile and walk, something fishy here.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Aquaranger.


Usually (but not always) all expenses involved in a survey, including yard fees and preparing the boat for survey, must be met by the buyer. Read your agreement carefully!
As the buyer, the sea trial is for your benefit; therefore it is in your best interest to ensure that the boat is properly prepared.
It should be fully commissioned, meaning that all equipment should be on board and ready for operation. Don't assume that the seller/broker or surveyor is taking care of this for you. Ie: Batteries should be charged and tanks full.
As a general rule (for pre-purchase sea trials), the vessel owner (seller) or a representative (broker/captain) should handle the boat during most of the sea trial, because of liability concerns. However, once the boat is in open water, the buyer may ask to take the helm for a time, in order to get a firsthand feel for the boat's handling and running characteristics.

Some good advice from “Boatpoker” ➥ http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Sea%20Trials.htm

And from Steve D’Antonio ➥ https://www.passagemaker.com/technic...me-others-know

[john61ct]

If I **really** lusted after a boat, thought the value proposition was outstanding, I would not let the fact that the selling side didn't have their act together stand in my way of getting a thorough sea trial.

In fact with me as buyer organizing everything, you can bet I'd get a much more thorough vetting as a result.

Yes if we break something I may be liable, but then I only put a $5K deposit down, IMO worth the risk just be careful.

[jb2c]

It should be the seller's responsibility. If the seller doesn't want to run it for a sea trial, it is up to him to get someone who will. Either the broker or a friend or a hired captain.

As a broker some years back, I often had requests from sellers to do the sea trial. No way was I going to assume that liability without something in writing. When I asked for the signature, they normally would go hire a captain. I was a captain, but wanted no part of sea trial liability. I've seen some crazy things during a sea trial. Folks who either don't know the boat and electronics well enough. Or simply don't know what they are doing. I had two instances of damage during a sea trial. With the worst one, nearly sunk the boat. Thank goodness I had told the owner 'No' to doing that one.


In 99% of the cases, if I had to assume the liability for damages during a sea trial, unlike john61, I would simply walk. There are too many boats in the ocean to put myself into that situation. If the owner won't assume liability, that would tell me he isn't wanting to sell it that badly. Meaning it likely isn't such a great deal anyway. But I suppose there are exceptions to every rule.

[Pete17C]

The owner could be selling due to financial reasons, and can't afford the added cost. Like john61ct said, it'd be a shame to walk away on an otherwise good deal.

I would want an owners rep along and/or get a liability waiver of some kind, but would be willing to pay (all/part) for a captain if that was the last option.

[Blaine]

+1 to all who have said that a sea trial is the sellers responsibility along with any and all potential liability. The sellers insurance is in force until there is a change of title.

Pete17C, if the seller doesn't have enough money to hire a captain for a few hours to sell his boat, most likely he hasn't had the money to maintain his boat either. Run, don't walk, away. As a former broker, I have hired a captain at my own expense to operate a boat when the seller I was representing was unavailable. I would expect the same from any other reputable broker.

[Cheechako]

Just reject the boat based on anything you want and off the record tell them you're not paying for a captain. Things will change fast.

[meirriba]

In my several years as a surveyor, I have NEVER seen a seatrial where the buyer was responsible for operation of the boat.
The seller or his representative (seller's friend or broker would prepare the boat, take it out to sea and bring it back into its berth.
At sea, I would ask him to perform whatever I wanted to observe and do some manouvers myself to see/feel how it responds.
Nearing marina entrance, the helm always was in the hands of the selling party.

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Blaine

+1 to all who have said that a sea trial is the sellers responsibility along with any and all potential liability. The sellers insurance is in force until there is a change of title.

Pete17C, if the seller doesn't have enough money to hire a captain for a few hours to sell his boat, most likely he hasn't had the money to maintain his boat either. Run, don't walk, away. As a former broker, I have hired a captain at my own expense to operate a boat when the seller I was representing was unavailable. I would expect the same from any other reputable broker.

I assume you would have done a survey to find any (lack of) maintenance issues before the sea trial.

I would not accept liability for damages, but might pay a captain (preferably of the owners choice) for a day if I thought the boat was still worth pursuing after the survey.

If, as you say, the sellers insurance is still in effect, and I have permission to take out the boat, I doubt I would be legally responsible for damages anyway. (I know if I lend my car to someone and they total it, I'm the one whose taking the hit (on my insurance).)

As the buyer, you've already paid for a haul out and survey, what's a few more bucks if it's a boat you want?

[GordMay]

... As a general rule (for pre-purchase sea trials), the vessel owner (seller) or a representative (broker/captain) should handle the boat during most of the sea trial, because of liability concerns...

... if the seller doesn't have enough money to hire a captain for a few hours to sell his boat, most likely he hasn't had the money to maintain his boat either. Run, don't walk, away. As a former broker, I have hired a captain at my own expense...

Indeed.
I wasn't clear that the OWNER should be responsible for operating the boat (or paying Captain), and for liability.

[Aquaranger]

Thanks to all for the replies. Your experience certainly backs up what I suspected, but sometimes you start to second guess yourself in these types of things. We are working with the broker to address this with the seller. The current owner seems to have moved across the country and just wants to be rid of the boat. For know I feel this is probably more a matter of miscommunication than anything, but if issues continue to come up I’m ready to raise the red flag.

[sailingforfun]

When I sold my boat I paid for the sea trial captain. As the owner I was the only one who had insurance on the boat. As an absentee owner, my broker arranged for the sea trial captain, but I paid for it. I actually paid twice, because the first buyer did not buy it. That sucked, but its the cost of selling a boat.

[hellosailor]

While the broker is supposed to keep his/her mouth shut and just relay on what the seller tells them to...Unless this was their first day on the job, they would also have known this is a most peculiar request, and they really should have said "The seller wants this because they're not around, and I don't know how to sail" or whatever the case might be.
Even if you work it out, keep in mind that you are dealing some some odd folks here, and assume nothing. I wouldn't even have the survey done, until after the captain nonsense was dealt with. Owner is out of town, broker cant sail (or it isn't worth his time), not your problem. If they can't figure it out, and you still want the boat, make sure the price reflects YOUR extra cost and involvement. Counteroffer, if the survey and sea trial are not satisfactory, they can have the survey--but they pay for the captain and the survey. And in any case, they pay for the captain.