Insurance challenges - Canada

[jen1722terry]

Many thanks to Mike and all for these thoughtful postings on getting insurance in Canada.

We're Yanks who own a cottage in Nova Scotia. The last time we sailed our old '84 Cape Dory over there from Maine ('14-'15), BoatUS (Geico) covered us for one year only, so we returned.

Now, after not being able to enter Canada since December, '19, were hopeful that we may be able to sail over there again this summer and keep her there for two years, which means we'll need local insurance coverage. We've already paid the import tax on the boat. The insurance info above will be quite useful.

And if we do get to our home in Mahone Bay, NS this summer, and any of you happen to be in the neighborhood, send us a PM and we'll connect. The sailing is lovely over there and the locals are very atuned to sailing and deep maritime traditions.

Cheers

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Thanks all, keep it coming. I would love to come up with a list of good brokers and underwriters.

Interesting the different experiences with the same underwriters. A few here either have Aviva, have been turned down by Aviva, or have had bad experiences with them.

As I am sure you remember Mike, I started a thread about two years ago proposing a cruisers co-op for insurance, particularly liability. Met with quite a bit of skepticism, partly because of people not understanding how claim risk can be shared for a percentage of the premium. Looks like the problem is getting worse as I predicted. I still think an enterprising entrepreneur should look at this possibility, the market is growing rapidly.

[alctel]

Oh boy.

Just got a 24' beat-up shark for some summer sailing fun, but to keep it at the marina (and finding a spot was it's own major hassle) we need liability insurance.

I contacted literally 9 insurance companies for 'liability only' insurance and 8 of them wouldn't touch it, saying a combination of 'too small, too old, not worth enough.'

I finally found someone who would do it (Dolphin) , but it cost 500 bucks for the year (liability only!), for a boat worth 1500.

What a hassle.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by skipper53

If more folks move to buying "liability only" insurance, the insurance companies will raise the rates on that too. They don't operate as a public service a charity, or a not for profit (intentionally) business. They employ lots of folks to keep track of their own profits, and lots more to avoid paying claims when you make one.

One thing I never bet against is the greed and avarice of corporations. So you could be right.


But insurance rates are based on risk. The real liability risk -- notwithstanding all the scary anecdotes -- is tiny. I guess they could add a much greater profit margin to these low-risk policies. But then the same pressure to stop buying the product would replicate itself.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by jen1722terry

Many thanks to Mike and all for these thoughtful postings on getting insurance in Canada.

Now, after not being able to enter Canada since December, '19, were hopeful that we may be able to sail over there again this summer and keep her there for two years, which means we'll need local insurance coverage. We've already paid the import tax on the boat. The insurance info above will be quite useful.

I would definitely look at AA Munro. They've done us well so far.

Hope you have a great trip up. Heck, I hope we can all resume somewhat normal cruising lives soon.

Originally Posted by captlloyd

As I am sure you remember Mike, I started a thread about two years ago proposing a cruisers co-op for insurance, particularly liability. Met with quite a bit of skepticism, partly because of people not understanding how claim risk can be shared for a percentage of the premium. Looks like the problem is getting worse as I predicted. I still think an enterprising entrepreneur should look at this possibility, the market is growing rapidly.

I remember indeed. I still think it's a great idea. I'd participate as a potential client or coop member, depending on how it got structured.

[nmuir]

I had a similar experience to many others. Rates jumping year over year, though lower than some at 18%.


I tried for liability-only but could not find anyone in Canada to offer it. I was told that with the lower absolute dollars that insurance agents would typically not do it as they would not make commission $, even if it was available from underwriters. Not sure if this is true or not but I could understand if it was.



If anyone knows of liability-only in Canada please post it out.

[SuW]

We have a policy with Premier Marine. $10K hull insurance, $1M liability and $1M pollution coverage. St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes only.

No surveys needed, just a picture of the boat once in a while. Premium is $440 per year.

We got it through the local broker that arranges our house/car insurance.

The boat is probably worth more than that, but that's what is cost us before we replaced everything...and if we lost it, we could cover it.

We couldn't find liability-only coverage.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by nmuir

I had a similar experience to many others. Rates jumping year over year, though lower than some at 18%.


I tried for liability-only but could not find anyone in Canada to offer it. I was told that with the lower absolute dollars that insurance agents would typically not do it as they would not make commission $, even if it was available from underwriters. Not sure if this is true or not but I could understand if it was.



If anyone knows of liability-only in Canada please post it out.

Dolphin marine, as per my post. But it's pricey - costing me $500 a year on a $1600 boat

[lmezzano]

Mike, I have a 39 year old sailboat and it has been a real challenge to get continuation of coverage, I had to do a new on the hard survey (last one was from 2012) to get a renewal. I have worked with HUB out of Vancouver for the last 10 years but it seems that it is getting more difficult to find underwriters willing to insure older boats unless you get a survey done every 5 years now.

Thank you for the information as well on how you solved the issue, and for starting the dialogue in the Forum, lots of good feedback on this.

Cheers.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by nmuir

I had a similar experience to many others. Rates jumping year over year, though lower than some at 18%.


I tried for liability-only but could not find anyone in Canada to offer it. I was told that with the lower absolute dollars that insurance agents would typically not do it as they would not make commission $, even if it was available from underwriters. Not sure if this is true or not but I could understand if it was.



If anyone knows of liability-only in Canada please post it out.

Both Skippers plan and April marine offer liability only insurance in Canada

[Mike OReilly]

Thanks folks. It's especially great to see names of brokers and underwriters, both on the good side, and the bad. I'll try and go through the thread and compile all the data once it has run its course.

So keep it coming .

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

In addition to the insurance, I'm now expected to pay a survey every five years.

Originally Posted by skipper53

Every time is see hurricane losses of boat pictures, I think of how much the insurance companies are paying out.

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

Mine went from $900/year to $3000/year due to BVI hurricanes.Then they dropped me because they are not writing multihulls or sailboats anymore. I tried to get a quote and they told me they are not writing for multihulls.

These points are all crucial, to my mind.

Not only the condition of any particular boat (40+ year "good old boat" or a badly constructed brand-new Lagoon catamaran), but also the increasing frequency of named storms due to global warming. The insurance industry seems to be waking up to all of this.

As I watch all the relatively inexperienced people flock to buying sailboats (mostly catamarans) because of watching YouTube videos, we can track a parallel increase in:

(1) high-damage/cost catamaran claims after hurricanes Catamarans are disproportionately expensive boats and now the more frequently purchased, so their repairs/ write-offs have surely been commanding a disproportionate amount of insurance companies' outgoing funds and will only continue to do so (of course, this is pertinent to Bahamas and/or Caribbean cruisers, but lots of us go South for the Winter or are intending to do so);

(2) badly maintained 40+ year-old boats (no disrespect to Mike, of course, I'm just speaking generally) A newbie who buys an inexpensive sailable old boat doesn't know what they don't know and/or if she sails, they may not care; regular maintenance is not upkept and the boat becomes a sailing timebomb...

So here's what I'm thinking:

> A five-year survey cycle is slightly onerous, but reasonable qualification hurdle for continued coverage. In effect, it creates a "status of boat" record for the Insurer, as well eliminating badly maintained boats from the insurance pool. Additionally, regular good surveys/surveyors help provide a priorities list for the Owner of things needing immediate attention, especially for those who are new to boat ownership.

> An Owner's qualifications and circumstances may become increasingly important and prerequisite to obtaining insurance. Over the past year on this Forum alone, I've seen countless insurance pleas from absolutely green non-sailors and single-handers with little experience who are having a hard time finding an Insurer. This is the canary in the coal mine...

Just some observations,
LittleWing77

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

One thing I never bet against is the greed and avarice of corporations. So you could be right.


But insurance rates are based on risk. The real liability risk -- notwithstanding all the scary anecdotes -- is tiny. I guess they could add a much greater profit margin to these low-risk policies. But then the same pressure to stop buying the product would replicate itself.

My perception is that the liability can vary greatly. In Newfoundland the liability risk is small. Not a lot of “high value targets.”

Down in the Caribbean it is an entirely different matter. There we are surrounded by high end boats. And with the anchoring conditions, frequently steeply sloping, it is all too easy to drag off. And their lawyer is likely a lot bigger than my lawyer.

I was surprised how much our liability only coverage cost. Yet, in my particular circumstance, I feel it is well worth it.

Our steel hull is worth a lot to us. But maybe only $100k reasonably insurable. The neighborhoods tinsel cat may well he worth $1M. That is the greater loss I seek to mitigate.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by alctel

Oh boy.

Just got a 24' beat-up shark for some summer sailing fun, but to keep it at the marina (and finding a spot was it's own major hassle) we need liability insurance.

I contacted literally 9 insurance companies for 'liability only' insurance and 8 of them wouldn't touch it, saying a combination of 'too small, too old, not worth enough.'

I finally found someone who would do it (Dolphin) , but it cost 500 bucks for the year (liability only!), for a boat worth 1500.

That's not far off of what we pay for liability plus a little hull & contents insurance for a smaller boat. But what are your marina charges for the Shark?
I sort of lump our slip plus insurance together and treat it as just the annual cost of sailing a boat. We're at a club, which helps keep costs down and is fun to boot. Plus the lovely reciprocals privileges.

Questions (any insurance brokers here to answer?): do not some home policies offer some basic boat liability coverage? Also - if the home policy also offers personal liability coverage, could that not be applied to the boat?

[wannacat]

Originally Posted by alctel

Dolphin marine, as per my post. But it's pricey - costing me $500 a year on a $1600 boat

Wow for liability only!? Mine just went up 20% on a 44 year old boat valued at $24,000, I'm now paying just over $500 with tax in but that's for complete coverage. Sounds like their raking you if it's just for liability! Mine is through CPS [Can Power Squadron] with Cowan. I think that's way to hi for this value, but best my broker said they could do.