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Old 19-05-2021, 06:25   #1
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Insurance challenges - Canada

Just wanted to share my recent insurance challenges. I'm curious if others are seeing the same here in Canada. I know it's a common story in the US and other places, but it seems to have come home now...

The short story is I saw a big jump in my rates two years ago. And then this year had to really work to even get insurance. The issue seems to be the age of my boat: 44 this year.


Details.... two years ago my insurance through Intact (underwriter), which was brokered through Fairway Insurance of Atlantic Canada, jumped something like 30% in one year. No change from my end, and no claims -- ever.

I was told it was a system-wide increase, and I could do nothing about it. Not happy, but I paid the extra.

Then this year Fairway informed us that because they were switching underwriters from Intact to Aviva that they could no longer find any insurance for our boat. Apparently Aviva would not take the policy due to our boat age (over 40 years old). Fairway just dropped us like a hot potato, seemingly without trying to find another underwriter. I was not impressed.

I contacted another broker who was still working with Intact, and they immediately thought it would be no problem to renew the policy. But then Intact came back and said, since this was now a new policy (because of the new broker), they would no longer underwrite it. Again, the issue was the boat was over 40 years old.

Happily our new broker, AA Munro, (also based in Atlantic Canada) actually did what brokers are supposed to do. They went to work and found us an underwriter that would take the policy. But they had to go to a specialty underwriter: Cambrian Specialty Risks.

I'm happy to report we have a new comprehensive policy, with all the standard stuff, along with $2M in liability. And we actually saw a price reduction of about 30%.
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Old 19-05-2021, 06:55   #2
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Hey there Mike, sorry to hear that you had some challenges. I think that this issue is a rapidly developing problem in our sport. I know that Good Old Boat magazine has been devoting some attention to it. So far, I have not had any problem getting Aviva to underwrite the policy on my 46-year old boat, but then I have been continuously insured with them for the past 37 years.

The problem seems to be particular to the North American insurance industry, who are always dubious about the maintenance conditions and risks of older boats and cars. However, given the state of some of the good old boats which I have looked at, and the levels of ignorance and apathy demonstrated by some owners, the industry's reluctance is understandable. If you have a fully restored classic boat, then getting a reasonable replacement value on the hull insurance is very problematic. However, my cousin in Amsterdam owns and operates a canal boat which was built in 1889, so it is 132 years old, and he has no problem getting insurance. Apparently European insurers are more willing to believe in the durability and desirability of older property.

I have read elsewhere that Hagerty Insurance is providing better solutions focused on the issues in insuring classic boats, but I do not yet have any personal knowledge or experience with them. I would be interested to hear any feedback from some of their customers.
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Old 19-05-2021, 07:00   #3
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

We're insured with Aviva through a broker, and our rates (32 year old boat) went up about 10% this year, which in my experience is pretty typical for insurance in general. That's why you have to shop around every couple of years. But your 30% increase is pretty steep for something claimed to be "across the board."

The other thing I spotted is that they're now asking for a survey every five years. I'm pretty sure - but admit I haven't checked the documents yet - that it was every ten years when we first insured with them five years ago.
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Old 19-05-2021, 07:17   #4
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Good relevant OP Mike. I've seen this same scenario in other sports, specifically, aviation. It seems that the insurance industry goes through cycles of preferred products and less preferred products. Right now, life insurance is preferred and older boats and airplanes are less preferred. My experience is similar to yours in that, the solution is to find a broker that will work for you by shopping for a reasonable company. Until the pendulum swings back, sharing who the reasonable underwriters are could prove helpful to the CF community.
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Old 19-05-2021, 08:27   #5
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

My insurance has been relatively stable (through April Marine) I'm in Ontario and if Insurers are getting hesitant about older boats, the whole sport is going to have an issue as at my club (and elsewhere that I've noticed) the vast majority of boats are ones built in the 70's 80's and 90's! To me looks like probably 80% of the boats I see are in this category. We all might be sailing around without insurance soon!
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Old 19-05-2021, 08:53   #6
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Thanks for the info and the responses guys (gals?).

PP: that's interesting to hear about Aviva. Our old broker (the one who dropped us) said Aviva wouldn't touch us. Good you're still able to carry on, but I guess it is a grandfathering thing. I assume Intact would have kept us on as well had our previous broker not forced us to change.

It really does seem to be an issue for North American boat insurance. I've been reading about these kinds of problems from our American friends for a few years now. It seems the same pressures around limiting coverage, increasing prices and simply cutting off old boats has crept into our Canadian underwriters as well.

And thanks for the reference to Hagerty Insurance. I really think the more info we can share with each other, the better it is for all of us. Insurance always seems like such a black box, shrouded in mystery. It almost feels like the industry wants to keep people ill-informed.

AnglaisInHull: Good info about Aviva. So no issue so far with over-30 year old boats. I think some reports from our American friends put 30 years as the cuttoff. So far we've been told it is over-40 that is the problem.

And yeah, this is a good lesson about shopping around every few years. I get pretty complacent about this stuff, but I shouldn't.

The survey thing is interesting. In fact, I switched brokers and underwriters when we sailed out to the east coast specifically because of the demand for a new survey. This prompted me to shop around, which is how I arrived at Fairway Brokers. They were initially quite good, but I would no longer recommend them.

ALC: That's good info on the aviation side. I guess the markets are similar in that it is small, and somewhat specialized. I hope you're right about the pendulum. But yes, a good broker is gold. Too bad there seems to be a few dud brokers out there as well.

pcmm: I completely agree. If they're going to arbitrarily cut off older boats, then they're basically going to cut the whole market by a massive amount. Makes no sense.
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Old 19-05-2021, 08:56   #7
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

I have found the same issues with my 1979 built boat. Insurance time is one I dread as you never know if you can get reasonably priced coverage. It may come down to liability only but feel the insurance companies will rape and pilage that too.
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Old 19-05-2021, 08:57   #8
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Mike, I had similar 30% experience 2 years ago, no claims, FG boat 27 years old. This year was the 5 year survey, current value went up. I am on the west coast. My question is not about the coverage so much, as do they actually pay claims? Met a couple on the dock last fall, asked about how to pay for the mooring ball fee. They had one of those Kryptonite dinghies, the one with handrails and all the stuff. Said they had just bought the boat, their first, and when they picked it up, broker gave them the keys. They had to go back to the office to ask how to start it. It was a 47' Sea Ray sedan. My question was about insurance.
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Old 19-05-2021, 09:02   #9
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Mike,

We had Fairway but switched to Geico a couple of years ago. Chouette is only 37.

The irony is thick here: cant get insurance on a boat we cant launch. Maybe the world IS falling apart?
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Old 19-05-2021, 09:25   #10
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

So far I've not had any problems on my 45 year old boat, there was a big increase 2 years ago, but no threats to stop coverage. When I was initially shopping for insurance in 2016, my broker (Waypoint Insurance in Ladysmith) got me three quotes, one wanted a new survey, one had extra limitations because of my inexperience, and the other (underwritten by Beacon) was what I wanted.

Since the previous 2010 out-of-water survey is now 11 years old (2016 survey was in-water only), I got her resurveyed last year in anticipation that it might become an issue, and to give me the option to shop around ...

... we'll see what happens this year, the only three things I can do are: keep the boat well maintained, document my experience, and shop around if I have to.
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Old 19-05-2021, 09:38   #11
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

I've had Hagerty (underwritten by Essentia, if that means anything to anyone) for as long as we've had Argyle, 14 years. They require an out of water survey every 5 years. I pay about $1100US/year for about $50k agreed value plus a bit of dinghy coverage. I'm not Canadian but I am covered within the 'waters' of the US and Canada.

I couldn't get a good answer for what 'waters' meant. The person I talked to had no real idea and they don't define it well in the documentation. 3 mile line, 12 mile territorial waters, 250 mile exclusive economic area, all of the north Atlantic claimed by the US navy in 'Hunt for Red October?' No clue. Probably safe to assume you aren't covered beyond 12 miles out. I'm fine with that. Don't know if you can get a rider for an offshore hop. Also don't know if you can get coverage for a Canada based boat, but like I said, my coverage does extend there. I think they are based in Minnesota. Their main business is classic cars.

Also never had a claim, so I don't know how good they are on that front.
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Old 19-05-2021, 09:39   #12
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

OK Like all of you I was stunned by my insurance quote. I was with the agency that promises 15% reduction for CPCS. Anyway, I changed and dropped dramatically like 50+% by switching to Portside Marine Insurance in Canada. Only difference was dropped medical coverage for myself as I have private insurance. $2 million and all the other bells and whistles. Replacement value at $225K (CAD). They said they require survey after 20 years which I do not need. Not sure how often after the first survey. My brother told me about Portside that a lot of his friends switched to ..... for what it is worth. Coverage between 40 deg N ( NYC) and Labrador coast.
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Old 19-05-2021, 09:41   #13
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Argyle: For my insurance it is 100km from nearest shoreline within range.
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Old 19-05-2021, 09:43   #14
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmm View Post
My insurance has been relatively stable (through April Marine) I'm in Ontario and if Insurers are getting hesitant about older boats, the whole sport is going to have an issue as at my club (and elsewhere that I've noticed) the vast majority of boats are ones built in the 70's 80's and 90's! To me looks like probably 80% of the boats I see are in this category. We all might be sailing around without insurance soon!
You might be "sailing around" without insurance but you won't be hauled out, launched or occupy a dock in a Club or Marina facility without it unfortunately or I wouldn't bother with insurance for my 44 year old either. Had similar problems with my 29 year old cat, got bounced around to Nautimax also. Now we sold it and the new owner's had real problems getting insurance, finally got it from Nautimax also. However, they've moved the traditional hurricane safe zone further north so The Chesapeake is no longer an option for summer, you have to be up near New York city roughly, apparently. Life on a boat is definitely getting harder and more expensive! Glad we lived our dream for 11 years of going south when we did! Good luck to all still dreaming!!!
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Old 19-05-2021, 10:34   #15
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Re: Insurance challenges - Canada

Insurance, what a nightmare. Mine went from $900/year to $3000/year due to BVI hurricanes. Then they dropped me (1 week ago) because they are not writing multihulls or sailboats anymore. The girl on the phone told me they are not writing anymore sailboat policies after the current policies expire. I tried to get a quote from them, they told me they are not writing for multihulls. I don't know.

That was Geico.
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