What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

[Mike]

Maybe blind mans bluff is the best. Give them what they want so to speak. Maybe keep a "false" saftey lock box on board with some cash. But make the cash look like alot. a couple of 10s and 20s a couple of 5s on top and a bunch of ones in the middle. Also expired credit cards and other crap that just looks good. Keep the good stuff hidden somewheres else. That may satisfy them and you loose next to nothing. I enjoyed the idea of the sound of a barking dog turned up loud. Excellent. Bright lights controlled from the inside is also a great idea. Mike

[sy_gilana]

Totally against guns. IMHO If your'e packin' you should not be cruising.
See this link

http://www.onpassage.com/News/News.htm

After growing up in South Africa and carrying guns almost all the time, we threw ours overboard in 3800m of water in the South Atlantic. A symbolic gesture of leaving violence behind us and seeking peace in our new cruising life.

[GordMay]

Thanks to "On Passage" for the heads up on this story.

Millionaire Christopher Packer has been released from prison in Bali after three months in custody for firearms offences.

He was arrested by Indonesian marine police last November, as he attempted to leave Indonesian waters. They found about 2700 rounds of ammunition, and six firearms, including a semi-automatic rifle, two pump-action shotguns and a revolver.

On February 18, 2004 , Mr Packer was found guilty of violating a law relating to declaring firearms kept on vessels. The court found he had already served enough time in prison. Mr Packer was released from Bali's Kerobokan prison late on February 19, 2005.

The court decided Packer, had not been a gun runner - an offence carrying the death penalty. Judges also ordered the return of boat, “Lissa”, and his weapons, which Packer said he kept to fend off pirate attacks.

[delmarrey]

What would he have gone through if he had claimed all his armory?

[GordMay]

I have no direct knowledge of Indonesian firearms policy - but, since they did return his arsenal, it would seem reasonable to assume that cruisers are permitted to retain their weaponry.
ie: While Bahamians are not allowed to possess fire arms, cruisers may, if properly declared (including each round of ammunition).

A little more info':

It appears that Gun possession is illegal in Indonesia.
From: http://www.indo.com/indonesia/
Customs
On entry to Indonesia, each adult is allowed to bring in tax-free a maximum of one liter of alcoholic beverages and 200 cigarettes or 50 cigars or 100 grams of tobacco.

Cameras, video cameras, portable radios, cassette recorders, binoculars and sport equipment are admitted provided they are taken out of the country on departure. They must be declared to Customs. Prohibited are firearms, narcotics, pornography, Chinese printing and medicines, transceivers and cordless telephones. Films, pre-recorded video tapes and laser disks must be screened by the Censor Board.

There is no restriction on the movement of foreign currencies or travellers checks in and out of the country. However, the import and export of Indonesian hard currency exceeding Rp. 5 million is prohibited.

[Alan Wheeler]

It was the simple fact that he didn't declare, that he got in trouble. His agent told him not to declare any fire arms. It was totally wrong advice. Had he told the authorities earlier, then they would(should) have been fine with the situation. They most likely would have removed the weapons and maybe returned them on departure, but that part I am not sure about. It was actually on arrival to indonesia, not departure and the weaponry was seriuose stuff. Plus the numbers of rounds. I mean, it I am not sure what he was expecting of pirates, but this guy had enough supplies, he could have dug in and kept a small country at bay for a few months.
In NZ, our customs also remove firearms and return them on departure. It has been scary as to what some vessels carry. I have even seen handgrenades. But it is when people try hiding weapons that our authorities get heavey handed. And this is where many cvome unstuck. They think they can hide stuff, but you have to realise that boarder patrolls of any country, are highly trained in looking for places to hide stuff. At least here, they will ferret around in all sorts of nooks and craneys and looking for false compartments etc.

[GordMay]

Temporary confiscation of your firearms doesn’t sound too onerous, until you consider that you’ll have to return to your original port of entry (you may have cruised some distance down coast) to retrieve them, then depart national waters (more or less) immediately. This is an important issue in many jurisdictions.

As Wheels indicates, trying to hide your guns is an unwise choice.

While I maintain that the use of firearms, in self defense, may be a very rare circumstance - I would certainly prefer to have that option, in that circumstance.
I don’t personally carry firearms aboard, primarily because I have judged the legal hassle to be greater than their protective efficacy.
Gord

[GordMay]

The consensus in theses articles on Piracy & Security from “Sailnet” seems to be that guns are either unnecessary or undesirable aboard the cruising yacht. This matches the preponderance of opinion I’ve heard from cruisers over the years.

I know that there are others with an opposite opinion. Can anyone direct me to CRUISER articles advocating firearms for self-defense?

“Dodging Pirates in Southeast Asia” ~ by James Baldwin
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=baldwi0011
An excellent article, which includes photos & instructions for fabricating companionway & hatch “security bars”.

”Fears of Piracy” ~ by Tania Aebi
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=aebita0020
An interesting read, wherein she says, “...I traveled with an empty hand grenade and a fake beard.” (among other things)

”The Perils of Piracy” ~ by Mark Matthews
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=matthe0968
The International Chamber of Commerce runs a website that can offer weekly updates regarding incidents of piracy. Have a look at that site here: www.iccwbo.org/ccs/imb. I'd also encourage you to check out a couple of articles on the site: Guns and Cruising by Sue and Larry or Guns on Board by Tom Wood.

”Guns and Cruising” ~ by Sue & Larry http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...leid=suelar082
We're happy to say that we've never felt threatened while cruising. Flare guns, spear guns, and baseball bats, however, are commonly cited as weapons of defense in the cruising community.

”Guns on Board” ~ by Tom Wood
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=woodto0063
Overall, I think most cruisers have come to the conclusion that guns are only an American obsession, and that carrying them is usually not worth the hassle.

”Cruising Dangers, Part One” ~ by Lisa Copeland
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=copela0025
We do not carry firearms aboard Bagheera. Although many sailors carry guns when they first start cruising, most of those with experience have given them up as more of a problem than an asset.

PIRACY From “Watermellon’s” cruising FAQ’s ~ by Jeanne Pockel
http://www.cruiser.co.za/faq101.asp#9
( http://www.cruiser.co.za/ home of the http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/ )

Respectfully,
Gord

[GordMay]

For a little more information, see my post “Firearms Regulations by Country” at: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread....&threadid=1641

[Naughty Cats]

For what it's worth, here's my outlook. I am not proposing these views are correct for anybody else:

I believe I have the right to defend myself and others against violence by any means necessary, including deadly force. This right supercedes all laws.

The use of deadly force carries a grave responsibility to acquire the competence to apply it accurately and appropriately, with a thorough understanding of the consequences of doing so.

There is no way to arm a cruising boat to outgun all possible assailants, but being totally defenseless and totally dependent upon the benevolence of the world's criminals is hopelessly naiive.

Most improvised weapons proposed here are a delusion, and almost totally useless against firearms.

I do not believe an attempt at armed self-defense will inevitibly result in my demise, based upon the incompetence and bad judgement of a very, very small number of other people.

However, from a practical standpoint:

Complying with the varying laws of diverse countries may be more hassle than the actual liklihood of violence justifies.

Should the policy of the government of a cruising destination be inconsistent with the hazards there, I'm not breaking their laws, I'm just not going there.

[witchcraft]

For me and me alone, I will not be choosing to carry firearms. I have learned how to use firearms, and grew up around hunters etc.. In fact we once owned a gun.. At that point we were farming and needed occaisionally to remove vermine that were threatening small animals. This was a rare occurrance.
We do not have firearms aboard. Unless, of course you count the flare guns. An item which could be fired at a person I suppose. However, in the case of extremely well armed persons, I suspect one would only anger them. Not a great idea.
I do note that my preference is not the one many folks have, and am not a fan of trying to impose my preferences on others, or have them impose theirs on me.
Happy Sailing
Witchcraft

[ssullivan]

My one question is:

Why are so many people so fearful of others that they feel it's necessary to arm to the teeth to go and enjoy island hopping?

I just don't get it. The overwhelming majority of cruisers have no trouble at all with violence. I've seen the crime in the Caribbean. It's the same as in NYC - typically petty theft.

It's no more dangerous "out there" than it is "in here."

Just my 2 cents.

[sv_makai]

We have been cruising un-armed in the dangerous country of Venezuela with armed revolutionairy gorillas and pirates in every cove. (just kidding) Still fewer cruiser related problems than the Wash DC area.

Side note, just becasue a country allows you to enter with a firearm it doesn't mean you are protected.

Last week on the boats in the marina in PLC was boarded by the Guardia searching for drugs. Unfortunately it was the wrong boat, but the Guardia tossed the boat anyway and found the gun that he had declared. The Guardia hauled him off to jail, confiscated the gun anyway, and fined him after releasing him the next day. Venezuelian jails are not very pleasant so I have heard.

Moral of the story is the host country may allow you to bring guns in, but it doesn't mean you get to keep it trouble free!

[sneuman]

I know this will get me in the list of most-hated Cruisersforum denizens, but, I have to say:

a) It's interesting that this thread attracts 10x as many posts as, say, a thread on the pros and cons of deploying a drogue.

Yet, which scenario are we much more likely to encounter in the kind of waters most of us regularly sail?: pirates or heavy weather?

I assume most of the posters here are American (and, full disclosure: I am an American but living abroad), and my countrymen have always been unnaturally obsessed by everything to do with firearms. Given a choice, most Americans would gladly trade their First Amendment - the foundation of a free state - for their dubious (but precious!) Second Amendment. In fact, with the Patriot Act, the U.S. has already suspended or given up entirely much of its First Amendment guarantees. Score one for Osama and clan.

b) The exaggerated fear expressed here, and used to justify the need for a weapon on board is also worth noting.

I am guessing that most of you sail in coastal U.S. waters, where piracy isn't a major concern. I sail in Asia and have friends who have sailed the Malacca Straits and in the Philippines - supposedly the most pirate-infested waters in the world. They don't carry firearms. Hmmm ... makes you think.

So, I'd say the fear of piracy is largely that - fear. And, if the other guy does run up the Jolly Roger, a flare gun aimed at his gasoline outboard might be enough to get him to mosey along.

[Alan Wheeler]

Ummm, well it ain't actually "10x" more posters as such, as it just keeps being dragged up from the depths of time. Some of the original posts are a couple of years old now. Just when we all think it sunk to the dark dim depths of obscurity, someone brings it back up to the surface.